diy Farmer Logging

[kentucker07]

Hey all, I really love this forum, and I finally have a question I think might be worth asking, you be the judge :D 
Either way, I'd appreciate some insight on this.

I am in the midst trying to decide how to log, whether to go with someone who will require 40% (I replant, clean brush and pay taxes), or do it myself.  There are pros and cons to both I suppose. I'm on about 8 acres of at times steep sloping forest (about 35% incline at most), a dense covering of mixed varieties, mostly white fir, grand fir, doug fir and cedar (I will leave the oaks as the pigs love the acorns and they make a lot of biomass).  Being only 8 acres, the interest here in Douglas County Oregon has not been too grand as it's a small job (thinning) and the profits are slimmer to have someone else cut, so I'm thinking..
If I can invest in the equipment to do something I enjoy myself, save 40%, have the tax write offs for the equipment and (perhaps most importantly) have equipment I can use on the farm in the future (as well as to grab a tree now and then for firewood), that would be a great outcome for me.  What are your thoughts on this?  What kind of equipment would I need (thinking of a tractor to haul one tree at a time)?  Any recommendations I would greatly appreciate. The biggest tree is about 45' long and 30inches across..  Thank you.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AcCFBZNryE4

[beenthere]

Welcome to the Forestry Forum.

That was a lot to follow.  How does the video fit in with the questions you asked? That you in the video?

[thecfarm]

kentucker07,welcome to the forum. I kinda do what you want to do. I have a 40hp 4wd tractor with a 3pt winch,tires are loaded with fluid too. The steep part is the hardest. I have quite the hill,but level on the bottom of it and the top. I work the hill straight up and down,but the hill is only about 300 feet long. But there is ALOT to cutting trees,safely. Safety gear you need too.With only 8 acres,probably just your yearly firewood would be enough to keep up on it. Have you ever cut trees down in the woods? I really enjoy making my foest a better one. But there is ALOT to that too. You say farm? A 40hp is not big enough to run some farm equipment.

[kentucker07]

Welcome to the Forestry Forum.

That was a lot to follow.  How does the video fit in with the questions you asked? That you in the video?

Just an example of small scale farmer logging I suppose.

[kentucker07]

kentucker07,welcome to the forum. I kinda do what you want to do. I have a 40hp 4wd tractor with a 3pt winch,tires are loaded with fluid too. The steep part is the hardest. I have quite the hill,but level on the bottom of it and the top. I work the hill straight up and down,but the hill is only about 300 feet long. But there is ALOT to cutting trees,safely. Safety gear you need too.With only 8 acres,probably just your yearly firewood would be enough to keep up on it. Have you ever cut trees down in the woods? I really enjoy making my forest a better one. But there is ALOT to that too. You say farm? A 40hp is not big enough to run some farm equipment.

I've cut some, and taken by hand in small logs, down to bottom of hill, into truck, transported to car port to split and stack for curing.  I agree, safety is important :D Your land sounds similar to mine.  When I say farm I mean again small scale.  I'm on 11 acres total.  Pastured chickens, goats, pigs, with hope of expanding into forest if I can get the fencing/seeding/water tanks sorted out by next Spring.  Sounds like a 40hp might do it. Do you use a skidder as well, or does the winch take care of it all?  What's the biggest log you have moved uphill/down with that setup?  Thanks a lot

[thecfarm]

No skidder.My father and me hauled out some white pine that well over 3 feet across.But that was only 10 foot logs too. There was a few that was over 40 inches. It was all the poor tractor wanted. Those bigs ones are slow to get out of the woods. We kept the trails free of brush and cut a road to each tree. My Father drove the tractor out of the woods and I would walk out. I was able to keep the roads clear most of the time by just doing that. A tractor is hard to work in the woods. Can't go anywheres you want. Roads have to be planed out and stumps cut low. I still cut my brush up in short pieces,2-3 feet long. I will run the saw up the branches too. I like to get what I leave on the ground. It does take time to do all that,but so does replacing something that got tore up because I tried to run thorugh my brush sticking up in the air.

[Southside]

Kentucker07,

Welcome to the forum, duck or beaver?  My future responses will depend on how you answer that.   :D  We moved east from Lake County a few years back.  In my opinion, a tractor has its place, but most of those places are on clean, flat ground.  There is a very good reason the guys over toward Wasco County run tracked equipment in their wheat ground.  Many guys do run them and are very successful, couple of things to think about would be roll over protection, and under pan guarding (skidders have full armor under them) as sticks and stumps do jump up and break expensive parts like radiators, steering components, etc.   

Have you though of a draft animal?  A good single horse or OX would do everything you are looking to do and if its a female actually give you a replacement rather than depreciate on you.  Given you have small acreage you could farm with the same animal, yes it would be more work, but the investment would be a lot less in my opinion a lot safer when logging. 

I have a 70 HP tractor that I have done some logging with before I had the equipment I have these days, it is very slow, and at times quite frustrating.  My machine is only 2WD so that is a big disadvantage.  My first skidder was a Belgian mare and honestly I could do more with her in a day than I could do with the tractor.  These days I have a team of mares (one is the daughter of that Belgian), they spend the spring and summer working on an Amish friends farm and there is nothing they won't do, run a gas powered baler, mowing machine, plowing, discing, spraying, spreading manure, all while the driver sits on a fore cart, so it's not like you come home dog beat tired.  Just another avenue to think about. 

[gologit]

Kentucker07...

Before you think about logging you might see what the market is for logs in your area. Right now the mills in your part of the state are starting to fill their decks and as the burn salvage timber comes in they'll be giving that a priority.  Sometimes the mills are reluctant to deal with a low volume and sporadic producer.  Better check around.
  Logging is the easy part...making money at logging is where the problem is.
I understand that you just want to make enough to justify your machinery purchases but if you can get a decent price for your timber it will really pay off in the long run.

[kentucker07]

Kentucker07,

Welcome to the forum, duck or beaver?  My future responses will depend on how you answer that.   :D  We moved east from Lake County a few years back.  In my opinion, a tractor has its place, but most of those places are on clean, flat ground.  There is a very good reason the guys over toward Wasco County run tracked equipment in their wheat ground.  Many guys do run them and are very successful, couple of things to think about would be roll over protection, and under pan guarding (skidders have full armor under them) as sticks and stumps do jump up and break expensive parts like radiators, steering components, etc.   

Have you though of a draft animal?  A good single horse or OX would do everything you are looking to do and if its a female actually give you a replacement rather than depreciate on you.  Given you have small acreage you could farm with the same animal, yes it would be more work, but the investment would be a lot less in my opinion a lot safer when logging. 

I have a 70 HP tractor that I have done some logging with before I had the equipment I have these days, it is very slow, and at times quite frustrating.  My machine is only 2WD so that is a big disadvantage.  My first skidder was a Belgian mare and honestly I could do more with her in a day than I could do with the tractor.  These days I have a team of mares (one is the daughter of that Belgian), they spend the spring and summer working on an Amish friends farm and there is nothing they won't do, run a gas powered baler, mowing machine, plowing, discing, spraying, spreading manure, all while the driver sits on a fore cart, so it's not like you come home dog beat tired.  Just another avenue to think about.

, thanks for honesty..  At great risk I'll have to go with Beavers.  While I don't get to watch much sports, they seem to be more in tuned with forestry and farming.  I like your ideas.  i've actually checked around with some horse loggers here in Oregon about a year ago, they stay VERY busy and are quite far away.  It's a really great thought, but the time spent on learning to train, training etc would put me out at least another year, and I don't know where the economy will be then to be honest, and I've got to pay off debts and get the farm going "like yesterday". 

My ultimate goal is to rotate pigs and chickens to produce quality meat, transition from an office job, have a return of surplus to community members in need etc.  It's hard to do this without equipment, working by hand is a challenge.  Buying a used tractor or bobcat, a winch, safety gear,  a better chainsaw and thinning it myself would provide equipment for farm use, select cutting for firewood in future, clearing brush (most loggers who were interested will not do much with the brush at 40% pay) and lots of other uses (ponds, post hole digging, compost turning etc).  I can't think of any other way I could afford a $14,000 tractor, and that's on the low end).  I figure with saving 40% I have equipment I can write off that will hopefully last many years down the road and contribute to my other goals.  Too risky? 

[kentucker07]

Kentucker07...

Before you think about logging you might see what the market is for logs in your area. Right now the mills in your part of the state are starting to fill their decks and as the burn salvage timber comes in they'll be giving that a priority.  Sometimes the mills are reluctant to deal with a low volume and sporadic producer.  Better check around.
  Logging is the easy part...making money at logging is where the problem is.
I understand that you just want to make enough to justify your machinery purchases but if you can get a decent price for your timber it will really pay off in the long run.

Yes, will require a lot more planning, and that's after considering the equipment.  I see with an experienced logger, they tend to know where to deliver the logs for best pay (and will investigate that).  I was told that a timber cruiser would be able to tell me which mills are presently paying the most, however that's a minimum of $1500 I think, and is it worth it for such a small amount of timber?  There must be an easier way to find local mills and learn their requirements (type of logs, sizes etc), or is this a trade secret? :D 

[mad murdock]

Welcome kentucker07!  I would get ahold Marty Amos the Douglas co forester and see if him or one of his helpers can give you an assessment of your place, based on your goals and what you have there for tree stock. He will be able to give you some realistic figures for some hard planning.  To economize, don't rule out used equipment, and if you have 11 acres and you are wanting to maybe do some pond work or other dirt moving tasks maybe a small dozer would fit the bill, but then again if you are wanting to do farm chores, a tractor may be better, though for skidding not the best.  A 3
Pt skidding winch will change that drastically and almost turn a tractor into a decent skidder. Farmi, Igland, Norse, are some winch brands. Check the classifieds of the capital press Ag newspaper, there are often decent deals in there in the farming side and logging equipment. As far as a saw, Myrtle Creek Saw Shop is probably one of the better saw shops I have ever stepped into. He always has a good selection of decent used saws, or you can find new ones there as well. I would go for a 70cc saw. Good all around size. He will also have chaps and other essential safety gear. Good luck with your plans and we like pictures!!

[Southside]

Kentucker07,



, thanks for honesty..  At great risk I'll have to go with Beavers. 

Well, we all make bad choices.   :D   Just pulling your chain, I don't care either way but my whole family is green and yellow, so....

Perhaps the first thing you should do is find out what you have there for actual value as this is a business decision and should be approached as such.  If you choose to go it by yourself, and I am a big one for such ventures, then a dozer may fit your needs quite nicely given what you want to do. 

If the logger is talking about taking 40% and you keep 60% of your value that may not be a bad deal, especially on a small lot.  I have seen much larger land owners who only got 25% for their wood, not saying that is right, but expenses market conditions drive prices. 

In addition to the cost of a tractor and equipment you need to look at the operating expenses of selling your timber.  Depending on what you have for mill options around who are willing to buy from you direct you may be looking at having to purchase liability insurance, commercial trucking insurance, workers compensation, etc. 

Often smaller, family run mills won't require this, and they can be very competitive in pay so doing your homework and crunching all the numbers is essential. 

Like I said this is a business decision and although giving up 40% sounds like a lot on the face of it I can tell you my fuel bill is about 10% of my gross and maintenance another 10%, add in your purchase cost, the value of your time and what you could be doing to get the farm up and running and that 40% can be a bargain pretty quickly.  Especially if you take two years to do what a logger would do in a month.  Cash in your pocket allows you to be flexible and make things happen quicker. 

As far as brush and tops are concerned finding something that you can live with and the logger is willing to do, ie - a couple of piles in small clearings that are created.  May allow you to work through those "ugly" areas over some time while still making the farm move ahead sooner rather than later.  I would think if you went behind the logger with a chain saw you could clean up any brush on your ground pretty quickly. 

Just food for thought, want to see you get best deal and have the farm successful.  Nothing quite like the satisfaction of working for yourself.   

[kentucker07]

Can't thank you gentlemen enough for your replies.  I'll definitely consider all of this good intel, and will include before/after pictures either way.  I've got a lot to think about and numbers to crunch :D  stay tuned.