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How do I know if I need a water softener?...and what does that even mean?

Started by Piston, April 24, 2012, 12:13:47 AM

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Piston

I'm not sure if I have hard water, soft water, or some other type of water, but I think I have something wrong. 

We replaced our water heater about 3 yrs ago under warranty.  Since then, I've had to replace the water heater element in it twice.  I know they should last longer than that and I'm not sure why they are going, but is something like hard or soft water the possible culprit?  They seem like they have a lot of buildup of 'stuff' on the heating element, a lot more than I would expect. 

What does hard water or soft water even mean?  ???

How do I know if I have hard water or soft water, and how do I treat the problem?  I've heard of water softeners but I really don't know anything about them.  I'll start my "Googling" now but I'm hoping some of you can chime in with your bottomless pit of experience  ;D
-Matt
"What the Lion is to the Cat the Mastiff is to the Dog, the noblest of the family; he stands alone, and all others sink before him. His courage does not exceed his temper and generosity, and in attachment he equals the kindest of his race."

Ianab

"Hard" water means a lot of dissolved minerals in the water. When you heat that you get "lime scale" building up on things, like the heater elements, your kettle, showerhead etc. Eventually the element gets a good layer of scale, the water isn't in contact any more, and it burn out.

If it's hard water you will see that scale on the old element when you take it out, and will see other signs like shower heads blocking up etc.

Water softeners work by exchanging common salt for the other minerals in the water. A small amount of salt in the tap water then has pretty much no effect on anything. You then "recharge" the media in the filter with new salt. 

Hard water is most common if you are using well or spring water in an area with limestone rocks. The water picks up the minerals as it permeates though the rocks deep underground.

Ian

Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

SwampDonkey

We had a water softener installed when mother had the dishwasher installed. After a few weeks she decided the water softener used too much water to go through it's cycle, so it was disconnected and never used again.  Also had a hot water tank connected to the wood furnace and that didn't last long.   The current electric hot water heater is 20 years in service. That was installed on a rental agreement for the heater with the electric company. Well I figure it's been paid for 3 times by now. All these gadgets were "to save money" apparently. ::) I didn't see it.

Our water here is full of lime, the bedrock is calcareous. You get that in this region when you have white cedar and rock maple forests, kinda the indicator plants. I know one cedar stand that was cleared off and the soil layer stripped off. It was lime under it and it was not solid, it was like lime in a bag, but of course full of water. The farmer used it for years on his farm and had a lime spreading business. You wouldn't think with all the calcium about that you'd have to spread lime. ;D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

thecfarm

Could you have your water tested? Wife makes jelly and bakes out of the house so we have to have it tested. Our test cost $40. That should tell you want is wrong and what you need.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Norm

We had ours tested and set our softener settings based on that. Any decent plumber should be able to help you out...good luck finding one.  :D

bandmiller2

Matt,are you on town or well water? If town call and ask they can give you the info you need If not ask a local plumber.I'am near, and our town water tends to be acid, and used to eat away plumbing now the water dept. treats the water and its much easier on fixtures. Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

Piston

I have well water, and it sounds like I indeed have hard water from what you guys are saying.  I don't know if I have limestone in the area but it is certainly rocky/ledge.

Both water heater elements had a large amount of scale buildup, I guess this calcium?  Also, the shower head and tub spout get buildup as well.  My wife has been noticing that our dishwasher isn't "working" as good either, I'm not exactly sure what she means but she knows her dishwasher better than anyone  :D

I am going to look into how to get my water tested.  I imagine there are some kits similar to soil testing that I can get?  Maybe some sort of mail in sample or something, anyone know of any recommended 'kits' ? 

It looks like I will be installing a water softener in the near future.  Any inputs on how much something like this will cost me? 

I tell ya, I thoroughly enjoy looking at, reading about, and researching different sawmills, tractors, assorted forestry equipment, peoples timber framing projects, and all sorts of things like that, however, researching water softeners is not NEARLY as enjoyable  :D :D :D

Thanks for the help. 
-Matt
"What the Lion is to the Cat the Mastiff is to the Dog, the noblest of the family; he stands alone, and all others sink before him. His courage does not exceed his temper and generosity, and in attachment he equals the kindest of his race."

beenthere

I bought a water softener online several years ago. Installed myself and only soften the water going to the hot water heater plus the cold lines going to the shower, toilets, clothes and dish washer.  Drinking water is not softened. The softener has been very trouble-free over the last 14 years that I've had it.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Holmes

 You will find a few water testing labs in your area. Tell them your concerns and they should recommend the proper group of tests for you. It would be wise to find out exactly what is in your water. So maybe spend the money once for the complete test.
   We do have a vein of arsenic that runs thru central Ma. hopefully it is not in your water.  Arsenic can be removed from the water just so you know.   
If you plan to sell the house in the future you will have to go thru this whole process anyway and you may have to install a softener to help sell the house . 
You will also find a lot of softener companies in your area.  Systems may range from $1000 and up up up.
Think like a farmer.

sparky1

i put mine in for around 5 hundred. but i had alot of copper fittings and pipe already. bought it at a menards (box store)  I know you can spend more and they are prolly better.
Shaun J

Raider Bill

A word of caution. If you have a water softener company come in to test your water I guarantee it will test bad, plus the mark up is very high. Around here it's sort of a joke and scam.
I paid $750 on line for a whole house softener and a separate under sink reverses osmosis unit. The reverse osmosis unit only serves water to a small faucet in kitchen sink.
I installed them in 3 hours including a trip to hardware store. I used PVC connectors. It was simple really and I HATE plumbing.
The First 70 years of childhood is always the hardest.

SwampDonkey

It costs around $45 here for a water test, but that's not everything. That's just micro-biology. However, if they find something else of concern, they are suppose to report it by law. We used to get it for free but the government stopped testing years ago.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

WildDog

Piston we have the same problem here, apart from drinking water all our water comes via the creek. The scale build up is a real problem, so much so that the plan is to go totally rainwater for the house with only the yard/vege patch fed from the creek.
If you start feeling "Blue" ...breath    JD 5510 86hp 4WD loader Lucas 827, Pair of Husky's 372xp, 261 & Stihl 029

SamB

Some of the suppliers that sell water treatment equipment will test your water for free as you're a potential new customer, but be careful as BR has warned. The county health department might be another possibility for a free test, but definitely get it tested, you're family's health is at risk. If you have a low suds level from your soaps that's a good indicator of hard water, if you have trouble rinsing away the soap suds that's an indicator of soft water. I have a pretty elaborate water treatment system due to high iron content of my well water. It includes a chemical tank, chemical feed pump, retentions tanks and a carbon filter that back flushes daily. Hope you can get by with just a softener if that's what a water test determines is needed, possibly could be something as simple as a whole house filter. Good luck! :)

beenthere

The softener I bought online and installed was the Fleck 5600 Econominder. About $550 plus or minus if I recall correctly.
I pipe the rinse water outside and not into my septic system.
The econominder measures water usage and recycles after a certain gallonage is used (and 2 am in the morning), rather than a regularly scheduled recycle like some offer. Just keep salt in the salt storage bin and it has always taken care of itself.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Piston

I certainly will get my water tested.  I want to know just whats in there!  :D

I would never trust a company that is trying to sell me a water softener to test my water.   :D :D :D
That's like trusting Midas to do a free check on my exhaust system! 

I'll try to find an online resource to do an independent test just to see where I stand, then I'll start looking at  water softeners. 
Holmes, don't go scaring me with all that Arsenic talk  :D  I have to show my wife this thread and she'll have a for sale sign in front of the house tomorrow morning when she reads that, especially with the new baby on the way!  :D
-Matt
"What the Lion is to the Cat the Mastiff is to the Dog, the noblest of the family; he stands alone, and all others sink before him. His courage does not exceed his temper and generosity, and in attachment he equals the kindest of his race."

Brad_bb

Three years ago I needed a new water softener and iron filter here on the farm(well).  We have limestone in the ground and a lot of iron.  I had several friends at work who also needed to install setups in their houses.  So being engineers, we set about to understand how they work, how to size them etc etc.  We found that the different brand water softeners usually use many of the same parts and put them together as their own product.  Fleck heads are good ones.  I like the newer digital metered heads.  They measure the amount of water that passes through unlike the older mechanical units which just count time.  The metered units will regenerate(flush) at the set number of gallons you designate.  You can also set up a timed regeneration, so that if you don't use the set amount of water in say 7 or 14 days or whatever you set it at, it will regenerate when it hits that set time period so you don't get stale water sitting in there.  We shopped online and the best deal and quality parts we found was at http://www.qualitywaterforless.com/
We also upsized out brine tanks so that we could fill with more salt and have to fill it less often.
   You can buy a test kit from them too.  It's less than the cost of someone else doing it and you can test a bunch.  Once you get your hardness number, and your iron number, you can size your softener.  I have more detailed info on that if you need.
   The salt in the softener is used to clean the filter media.  Very little actually makes it into your water.  The minerals cling to the media and when the media is getting full, it flushes the media with the brine solution(salt) and the minerals bond to the salt and are flushed away down the drain.  The media is then ready to attract the minerals again. 
  For iron, you'd need an iron fillter, either "green sand" or "Pyrolox".  I have the latter.  It works just like a softener, only you don't need salt to flush an iron filter.
   Softened water has a lot of benefits.  You protect your appliances by preventing the mineral build up.  Soft water will rinse better, either dishes or clothes, or your body.  Once you start bathing in soft water, most people prefer it.  Definitely noticeable.  Some might say that you then won't be getting minerals in your drinking water, but we eat enough stuff these days that it wouldn't be a problem for most people.
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

SwampDonkey

Actually Brad that last statement is a little different spin than I'm used to hearing. The context I hear it being used is that hard water won't hurt you, and if you don't use some of those appliances there is no harm in using the well water as it is. I don't hear it being suggested to use it as a dietary supplement. But people being who we are, the original message often gets distorted a bit. ;)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

SamB

I had my well water tested/analyzed 3 times before I decided on a treatment system. One test was done for free, I purchased a test kit and did one myself and the one I trusted the most was done by a professional testing lab. I took the advice of the man who drilled my well on the type of system I installed, since he had over 30 years experience of water well treatment and drilling in the area where I live. I purchased the components and installed the system myself and have been totally satisfied with it's performance. I don't have the problems some of my neighbors have with discoloring of sink and bath fixtures or not being able to use bleach in the laundry. Most of the neighbors have just a salt brine conditioner, one has a $5K system from a well known water treatment supplier and they're not able to use bleach in their laundry. How well water is treated or whether it has to be treated is a regional issue IMO. Familiarity with the conditions on the ground or in this case in the ground are priceless. ;) :)

Brad_bb

It's an argument I've heard from others, but I don't subscribe to it as I said.  We usually eat enough things that we get all we need from our foods.  I gave the pro's and the one con I've heard others say. 
   Sure you can use your well water as is, but if you have hard water, then it will reduce the life of your appliances, and even have more build up in your plumbing over time.  Softened water will extend the life of those things due to the lack of scale build up.  Well water won't hurt you either(unless you have something in it you shouldn't).  I do prefer soft water though myself.  I think it quenches your thirst better.  But that's a personal opinion.
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

redbeard

The natural media type filter systems that use pebbles and sand with a back wash to self clean are the best, lots of different brands they last for years and really work good only draw back is you lose 5-7 psi not much can go wrong with them. They are more exspensive but no salt to deal with. Search isotonic water filter systems.
Whidbey Woodworks and Custom Milling  2019 Cooks AC 3662T High production band mill and a Hud-son 60 Diesel wide cut bandmill  JD 2240 50hp Tractor with 145 loader IR 1044 all terrain fork lift  Cooks sharp

Qweaver

We are very happy with using rain water captured from our metal roofs.  We filter it to below bacteria level for drinking and to 5 micron for other use.  We had visiters from Arkansas the last few day and they just marveled at the great showers and great taste of the water.  It's a lot more work to maintain a reliable water supply than just hooking up to city water but we are willing to do it.  We have never run short of water.  I wouldn't change a thing!  ;D
So Many Toys...So Little Time  WM LT28 , 15 trailers, Case 450 Dozer, John Deere 110 TLB, Peterson WPF 10",  AIM Grapple, Kubota 2501 :D

SwampDonkey

"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

sperry

Whatever you do, don't fall for the " as used on the Space Shuttle" crap that some companies try to sell you. Most water conditioning companies will test your water for free, mainly because they want to sell you something. Some are legit and some are not. Some will also do a "TDS" test (total disolved solids) that breaks the solids down so you can see how much junk is in your water. Believe me, there will be almost as much junk in city water and bottled water as there is in some well water. They usually use "TDS" test when selling an RO system.
The water test that water conditioning companies do is mostly for grains of hardness and ppm of iron. Any other water tests for bacteria or other bad things in your water, has to be done by laboratory.
FYI, most water softeners,of the same capacity, are made the same. About the only difference is the type of head that is used (ie: fleck, autotrol) and wether it regenerates on time or by meter.  I like the Fleck best of all

Clam77

Alot of people around here use Kinetico brand softeners - myself included.  I've only had to have a couple parts replaced in the last 10 years, but the softener is almost 40 yrs old i think and still working perfectly.  It runs off a meter head that's calibrated to my water hardness but I think I only use about 250-300 lbs of salt or so in it a years time.

Like Sperry says - most companies are only interested in grains of total hardness measured in ppm or mg/L, but unless it amounts to some huge number the average softener can take care of it.  Generally speaking, I would stay away from the electric ones as I've seen too many problems with them, but that's just my 2ยข. 
Andy

Stihl 009, 028, 038, 041, MS362
Mac 1-40, 3-25

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