29 trees = $62,800

[woody1]

An artical in PA sfi winter 2007 talks about a NY landowner who cut 29 sawtimber trees of of an ajoining propoerty owners land. A jury awarded $62, 800. The artical was also in The Northern Logger 2006.

[jon12345]

Within the past couple years NY has raised the amount of fines for timber trespass.  A few years ago the value of a log could easily be more than the fine for stealing it.  Now I think the fine is 3x's maximum value of the log.

[Max sawdust]

I doubt responsible loggers make that mistake.  If they do it is most likely a survey error of some sort.  I suspect most of the time plane old criminals knowingly breaking the law do it. >:(
It is tough to say how to put a value on it.  A tree can have a value higher than a commodity.  But you do not want to break the honest guy who accidentally felled one tree 3' across the line ;)
max

[woody1]

In this case the cutter used tax maps and the realtor. The logger/landowner was charged a statutory rate of $250/ tree, $14,000. estimated timber value x 3, $8,000. propery reclomation, $4,400. interest, and $1,155 in court filing fees. Simple investigation showed that there was a survey map, and deed discription filed in the court house.

[rebocardo]

I was clearing a 1.5 acre or so fenced in plot and almost got caught up into something like that. People didn't put a fence up in the right place and left their "buffer" zone unfenced. I looked up the law (good reason for a  contract to state the trees belong to the property owner)  and it requires a six foot fence by law around any buffer zone. So, I was off  8)

Luckily for the property owner I was working for most of the trees cut were trash with hollow centers or tops with heavy ant and vine damage, which is why they were being removed, and it was documented with eye witnesses and my handy camera. I like to take pictures of some of the bigger hollow trees I drop. 

I think eventually they gave up trying to sue each other over a mistake, over trees that were a doumented hazard, with no value. It didn't help that the property being trespassed on had someone put up surveying stakes (not by a surveyor - think it was the fence company) in the wrong place.

Once I had most of the brush and trees down, I found a metal pin buried in the base of a tree where it shouldn't be ...

[Max sawdust]

The pics are a good idea.. ;)  Glad that one was dropped.  Makes one think not to just trust a fence or tax map. Get someone qualified to run a spray can to mark the boundary.  Then they will be responsible if it is wrong
Woody,
Ouch That is a pretty high "stupid tax".. Poor fella, I think I would go after the realtor :-\
max

[stonebroke]

That happened just south of me in the Catskills. All most all the realtors sell off of tax maps even though the tax maps have a disclaimer that says they are not legal documents. I had a problem with a neighbor like that . The realtor gave a them a tax map that showed they owned a portion of a hay field even though there was a rock wall between our properties that had been there 150 years. I finally had to go down to the tax office with my survey and they fell all over it because they never get accurate info. So beware of tax maps.

Stonebroke

[Ron Wenrich]

If they really wanted accurate information, all they have to do is go down and look it up in the deed room. 

I don't use stone walls or fences for boundary lines.  Sometimes they are right on the line, sometimes not.  A lot depends on what the customs were in any given area.  It varies from valley to valley. 

If the logger is designating which trees are to be removed, then he has the liability.  Honesty has nothing to do with it.  He didn't do the needed leg work to make sure that he was cutting the right trees.

A good contract could have helped him out.  There should be a clause that says that the owner guarantees the title to the timber.  In that case, the landowner has the liability.

[woody1]

Ron....just to clear up this story. The landowner was the logger, and was logging the land himself.

[Warren]

A few years ago, here in KY, the state had some computer literate white collar criminals in state institutions input boundary lines on a GIS system based on aerial photography and existing tax maps.  At least in our county, when ever a new property survey is filed at the court house, the PVA (tax) office gets a copy of the survey.  The PVA staff then inputs the updated survey info into the GIS system.  Over time the PVA's info is becoming more accurate.  

However, buying or selling a property based soley on a tax map, not an actual survey, floors me.  The survey is the legal description for the property.  Not the tax map.


Warren

[rebocardo]

> The landowner was the logger, and was logging the land himself

Well, I bet the $300-$600 for a real survey looks cheap now.

[WH_Conley]

Wish it was 300-600 dollars here. All I needed was a description on a piece of property, all land owners agreed that the fence all way around was the line,(in writing) $1400.00, 20 acres.

[stonebroke]

Ron

Up here stone walls are mostly described in the deeds. Also if a rock wall has been there it is assumed to be the line. Stone walls are a lot easier to find than trees that were in the deeds 200 years ago.
Stonebroke

[Max sawdust]

In my opinion expensive or cheap, it is the land owners responsibility to know where the legal property lines are.  Typically, tax maps, plot maps, stone walls, "old Henry who lived around here forever says" are not legal description so trespass may occur and trespass is a crime. 
I feel it is the land owners responsibility to have it surveyed or whatever is considered a legal description in your parts. 

I am a land owner, and our county plat map has not just one error but two on our property lines.   The survey on file is correct.  If someone would come on my property and wack some trees and go "Da plat map did not say it was yours."  I would prosicute to the full extent of the law.
max

[Frickman]

It doesn't apply in this case, but my contract states that it is the landowner's responsibility to mark all property lines and to defend them and me against anyone who questions them. In Pennsylvania it is illegal to mark property lines for compensation without a surveyor's liscense. When I'm purchasing timber I am doing it for pay, it's part of my business. I have at times marked "timber harvest boundaries" that just happened to follow the property lines. I'll do this only where all the corners are well marked and I'm just shooting a line. The landowner still has to sign off on the lines being correct.

The best thing to do is contact the adjacent landowners and have everyone meet in the woods. If they all agree that the line is "the stone wall at the top of the hill" I'm happy and can proceed. It's easier to move flagging than stand up a tree after it's been cut.

[DanG]

The best thing to do is contact the adjacent landowners and have everyone meet in the woods. If they all agree that the line is "the stone wall at the top of the hill" I'm happy and can proceed. It's easier to move flagging than stand up a tree after it's been cut.

Good point, Frickman.  If everyone would do that, the judges would have time to try criminals instead of listening to neighbors bickering about a few trees. :

[jon12345]

If a tree is felled near a property line and falls across it, does the part of the tree on that side become the other landowners? Does he have to get permission to drag it back?   ???

[Ron Scott]

If the tree is fallen on the adjoining landowner's property without the landowner's prior permission, it is a trepass to their property and you will be liable for removal and any damages that the tree  may have caused to the landowner.