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Rift sawn???  How to???

Started by Bibbyman, January 08, 2005, 09:45:49 AM

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Bibbyman

We've sawed a million or more board feet of grade lumber – flat sawn,  I'd recon.  And I've even sawn some quarter sawn.  Then we've sawn untold thousands of bf of farm lumber just thru and thru.

But I ain't never been asked to rift saw any lumber.  I know what it is,  but why would someone what it?  What would it be good for? (over flat or quarter).  How would you saw an oak log to maximize the rift sawn lumber?



Bro. Tom's excellent diagram
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

Larry

Simple esthetics.  I'll try to explain best I can in terms of a raised panel door.  If the rails and stiles are rift sawn they will be more or less bland.  With this in mind the rails and stiles will not detract from the raised panel which should be the center of focus.  If the rails and stiles were quarter sawed or flat sawn their flash could detract or shift focus from the panel.

There are few other instances I can think of to use rift sawn for design purpose but I did a bad enough job explaining the use in a raised panel door.

Never thought of how to maximize yield of rift sawn as the cabinet boys just pick and choose the grain style they want out of the stack.
Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

EZ

You are right, Larry. But about 20 years ago the wood-workers change their mind about the rift sawn lumber because of the decrease in moisture in the houses now adays. With every house or almost every house in the states have air condi tioning which keeps on drawing the moisture out of the rift sawn and other lumber. The rift sawn lumber they found would peel as the quarter and flat sawn holds together alot better.
EZ

HORSELOGGER

swing mills and twin blade circle saws actually create a fair amount of rift lumber by the way a log is normally broken down. I have never q sawn on a band mill, but could you quarter the log, put the quarter on a shim so that most of the rings are in the rift position, and not take the shim out like some of the pics I have seen where they put the shim in and out after every cut ?
Heritage Horselogging & Lumber Co.
"Surgical removal of standing timber, Leaving a Heritage of timber for tommorow. "

GHRoberts

Rift sawn makes all four sides of a square look the same. This is often important for legs.

Quarter saw a 1/4 log from the center out (1 slice, roll, 2 slices, roll, 2 slices, roll, 1 slice) until you start to get rift. Saw what is left without rolling.

ARKANSAWYER

  The easist way to make rift sawn lumber is to knock off 4 slabs and start sawing top to bottom with out turning.  You will produce flat sawn at first and then rift sawn and it will give over to qsawn and back to flat on the bottom. (this is why swingers make so much of it as they saw top to bottom)  If the log is large enough you may skip over the middle six inches which would produce the qsawn lumber and flip it and start from top to bottom again and produce a bit more flat and rift sawn lumber.
  Better yet call the tooth doctor up north and order a bunch of qsawn and you will get a wack of rift sawn. :D :D :D :D ;D (sorry I could not help myself)
ARKANSAWYER
ARKANSAWYER

woodmills1

I wasn't gonna but here goes


JUST QUARTER SAW IT BADLY!
James Mills,Lovely wife,collect old tools,vacuuming fool,36 bdft/hr,oak paper cutter,ebonic yooper rapper nauga seller, Blue Ox? its not fast, 2 cat family, LT70,edger, 375 bd ft/hr, we like Bob,free heat,no oil 12 years,big splitter, baked stuffed lobster, still cuttin the logs dere IAM

Paschale

QuoteRift sawn makes all four sides of a square look the same. This is often important for legs.

Is rift sawn grain the same thing as "bastard" grain?  In one of the woodworking magazines recently, they were talking about making legs uniform by utilizing what they termed bastard cutting or bastard grain.  This comment by GHRoberts makes me wonder if it's the same thing.  
Y'all can pronounce it "puh-SKOLLY"

Fla._Deadheader


  Same thing, Paschale.

  I like Arky's idea the best.  :D :D :D
All truth passes through three stages:
   First, it is ridiculed;
   Second, it is violently opposed; and
   Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

MemphisLogger

I always thought bastard grain was when you had plain and rift in the same board and not centered/balanced.

But I still haven't figured all this lingo yet  ;D
Scott Banbury, Urban logger since 2002--Custom Woodworker since 1990. Running a Woodmizer LT-30, a flock of Huskies and a herd of Toy 4x4s Midtown Logging and Lumber Company at www.scottbanbury.com

oakiemac

I have had customers ask for rift sawn oak. I don't purposely saw it but my mill will produce some when I quater saw. I usually seperate it out and sell it as rift.
I actually like the look because it has straight grain without the ray flecks.
Mobile Demension sawmill, Bobcat 873 loader, 3 dry kilns and a long "to do" list.

TomFromStLouis

QuoteI always thought bastard grain was when you had plain and rift in the same board and not centered/balanced.

But I still haven't figured all this lingo yet  ;D

I use the terms as above too Scott. Bastard sawn to me is a bit like Bibbyman's picture in the first post where the grain varies across the board. Rift is true diagonal grain viewed form the end.

I think of rift sawn first as leg stock. Shaping a cabriole leg from a 3x3 requires rift stock or else you get flat grain spots which detract from the sculptural form. Even a square leg benefits from being rift sawn for the same reason. 4/4 rift makes sense for rails and stiles for strongly grained wood like oak or ash.

Tom

That diagram is pretty much the modified quarter-sawing technique taught by Wood Mizer for bandsaw mills, Kirk.


Magicman

Good Morning, ArtieMax, and Welcome to the Forestry Forum. 

It looks like you have been doing some reading, so how about an intro and sharing a bit about yourself and your lumber/sawing interest.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

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LeeB

Wow, old thread. A lot of names I haven't seen in a good while and one new one. Welcome Artie.
'98 LT40HDD/Lombardini, Case 580L, Cat D4C, JD 3032 tractor, JD 5410 tractor, Husky 346, 372 and 562XP's. Stihl MS180 and MS361, 1998 and 2006 3/4 Ton 5.9 Cummins 4x4's, 1989 Dodge D100 w/ 318, and a 1966 Chevy C60 w/ dump bed.

GeneWengert-WoodDoc

Rift sawn is a relatively new word.  Originally, there were only two grain patterns--quarter and flat.  The separation was 45 degrees.  Indeed, bastard sawn was when both grain patterns were in the same piece, so one did not know what to call it.  Even today, the NHLA Rules do not recognize rift sawn; they also recognize the grain pattern in the cuttings used for grainy and for quartersawn oak, etc. they require the ray fleck to be obvious...see the book for the actual description.  When you look at the national HARDWOOD MARKET REPORT, you will find that quarter and rift are put together in most cases, except that q-sawn white oak (for barrels especially) needs to be true quartersawn.  The drawing at the start of this posting is perfect.  Unfortunately, you can find on the Internet some postings that have the opposite description.

In the excellent sketch showing how to saw rift, you would find in a larger log (over 20") that the small width piece (at the corners) would be closer to flat sawn and the wide pieces near the center would be judged as quartersawn.  (Incidentally, I do believe that quartersawn gets its name from the fact that a log would be divided into four quarters, as the sketch shows.)  Because it is nearly impossible to get all rift sawn from a large log (over 15") using the pattern in the sketch and sawing lumber from the "white" section that is unmarked which would produce all quartersawn (and low grade unless ripped heavily), most sawmillers would combine quarter and rift.  Nevertheless, the sketch does show the most practical way to saw.  In your case, your customer should be willing to accept some q-sawn or else the yield will be half of normal...that is, sawing and selling only rift will have high waste and the customer may not like that.  Maybe you should show the customer this sketch (with additional pieces sketched in the center) and make sure he agrees.

Did you ever play baseball and did you hear that the trademark on the bat should be upwards?  That is so that the flat grain would also be up and you would hit with the quarter grain and the bat would not break AS EASILY.  Unfortunately, a lot of bats did not have the logo and the grain coordinated and also due to slope of grain along the length, the bat still broke.

WIth respect to LUMBER and not rounds, the difference between flatsawn and quartersawn (in addition to appearance) is:

*  Flatsawn shrinks and swells in thickness about half as much as quartersawn.  Quartersawn shrinks and swells in width about half as much as flatsawn.  (This can be important for exterior siding that is subject to frequent wetting and drying.  It can also be important for floors and other products that cannot tolerate much movement.)
*  Knots will be round or slightly oval with flatsawn, but will be long spike knots in quartersawn.  (Generally, spike knots lower the strength more than round knots.)
*  Shake and pitch pockets in the log will affect fewer pieces when manufacturing flatsawn than when manufacturing quartersawn.
*  When manufacturing flatsawn lumber, the yield of lumber from a log can be several percent to as much as 20% higher than when manufacturing quartersawn.
*  Flatsawing requires less technical and mechanical effort than quartersawing.
*  Flatsawn lumber is prone to cupping in drying. 
*  Quartersawn lumber is prone to side bend in drying.
*  Quartersawn wears better when used as a flooring material than flatsawn.
*  Flatsawn lumber, especially oak, is subject to surface checking, honeycomb (interior checks) and splitting (especially end splits) in drying, while quartersawn is not.
*  Flatsawn lumber dries up to 15% faster than quartersawn.
*  Quartersawn lumber will accentuate other grain patterns such as wavy grain and interlocked grain, but not birsdseye or fiddleback.

NOTE: The word "grain" has many different meanings.  (A split follows the grain, quartersawn grain, tight grain, smooth grain, etc.)
Gene - Author of articles in Sawmill & Woodlot and books: Drying Hardwood Lumber; VA Tech Solar Kiln; Sawing Edging & Trimming Hardwood Lumber. And more

petefrom bearswamp

Doc, Regarding your comment on wooden bats, I seem to notice that the ML players sometimes don't observe the label up rule. Maybe the bats are mis labeled.
Wood bats especially the maple ones seem to break more often than in the past maybe the players are stronger.
Pete
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beenthere

QuoteWood bats especially the maple ones seem to break more often than in the past maybe the players are stronger.

The grain in maple is too difficult to see, compared to ash, so a number of bats from maple break due to slope of grain.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Tree Feller

If you take square, flat-sawn stock and saw a "diamond" from it, you will end up with straight (rift-sawn) grain on all four faces.

As was said, this is desirable in table legs or cabriole legs for both appearance and strength.



 
Cody

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terrifictimbersllc

Quote from: GeneWengert-WoodDoc on January 12, 2013, 09:49:22 AM
 
*  Quartersawn lumber is prone to side bend in drying.


What's the reason for this? Because of inclusion of juvenile wood on the inner edge of QS boards? Or is it a tendency even if the juvenile wood is carefully separated?

Next week I'll be QS'ing (Peterson)  a very large red oak log (44" x 24') into flooring. I want to minimize side bend after it gets out of the kiln, or else the flooring mill will waste off width and the yield will suffer.   Probably going to saw it as three 8-footers to minimize side bend.
DJ Hoover, Terrific Timbers LLC,  Mystic CT Woodmizer Million Board Foot Club member. 2019 LT70 Super Wide 55 Yanmar,  LogRite fetching arch, WM BMS250 sharpener/BMT250 setter.  2001 F350 7.3L PSD 6 spd manual ZF 4x4 Crew Cab Long Bed

giant splinter

Rift sawn boards are widely sought after by wooden boat builders for many reasons, this may be the most common application for this type of milled planks.
roll with it

SPIKER

I'm looking for help all the shrinks have given up on me :o

GeneWengert-WoodDoc

The leg idea is indeed correct from a visual point, but the overall strength is the same for the piece of wood.  Also, if it is turned into a round or oval, it makes no difference.  But, how much difference is there between q and f?  It is actually quite small.  The slope of grain effect is much larger.  That is why for maximum strength, the wood for bats, legs, handles, etc. is oftentimes first split in order to get the grain direction.  A split follows the grain.  Then saw parallel to the split.  If the grain is straight lengthwise, then for a bat, the orientation is not so critical, but it still matters a little.

The grain in maple is swirling, so you cannot get perfect slope of grain.

Note that if you hit a stick of wood a lot, it will shell.  Likewise, if you squeeze wood real hard, like in a handle, that will also weaken the wood.

Then there is the grain deviation at and in the vicinity of a knot, plus there is the weakening due to tension wood, compression wood and juvenile wood (first 15 years of growth for a log).  These three also cause warp, including side bend in q-sawn lumber.

All these other effects are often much greater than q vs. f.
Gene - Author of articles in Sawmill & Woodlot and books: Drying Hardwood Lumber; VA Tech Solar Kiln; Sawing Edging & Trimming Hardwood Lumber. And more

GeneWengert-WoodDoc

A few mistakes in the video...the first and second pieces that he calls flat sawn are really quarter and rift with only a small portion of flat sawn grain in tHe mid width of the piece.  His sawing pattern for quartersawn is really going to produce more pieces of rift, as he indicates near the end.  This diagram is, however, a commonly used technique when quarter and rift are both acceptable.  For more quartersawn and less rift, we would actually try to keep the saw kerf directed to the center as we work around the log...sort of like spokes on a wheel.

If you compare the grain for his first flatsawn piece (rip it down the middle into two pieces) and his first quartersawn piece, they are the same.  Yet he calls the one flatsawn and the other quartersawn.
Gene - Author of articles in Sawmill & Woodlot and books: Drying Hardwood Lumber; VA Tech Solar Kiln; Sawing Edging & Trimming Hardwood Lumber. And more

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