iDRY Vacuum Kilns

Sponsors:

ID a felling technique

Started by Spruce_Goose, May 23, 2019, 05:24:39 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Spruce_Goose





Howdy,
I was wondering if someone could explain why one might fell a tree with the approach depicted in the picture above.


This was an arborist, taking down a White Pine near a cabin with some woodpecker damage. I might get to talk to them directly, but I also may not cross paths... so asking here.

I'm holding up the section where the initial cut took place, but it has since been severed above and below the original cut. It had a decently large face notch, and the hinge was established by a bore cut (came in from each side it). The part I'm curious about is the sort of tongue, or stool, that was left for the wedge (about directly opposite the face). Was this simply so the wedge was out of harms way of the final trigger release?

Old Greenhorn

It's called a tenon cut and usually the tab is on the trunk and extends into the stump. It is used in touchy situations where the cutter wants to be absolutely sure the tree goes the way he wants. Done right, the tenon will stay engaged between stem and stump all through the fall until the tree hits the ground. Not widely known, but its a real charmer when you need it..
Tom Lindtveit, Woodsman Forest Products
Oscar 328 Band Mill, Husky 350, 450, 562, & 372 (Clone), Mule 3010, and too many hand tools. :) Retired and trying to make a living to stay that way. NYLT Certified.
OK, maybe I'm the woodcutter now.
I work with wood, There is a rumor I might be a woodworker.

Spruce_Goose

Thanks Old Greenhorn.

I checked out a couple vids on said cut. The vids show a slight difference: namely that the 'tenon' was cut stem side, as you mentioned, and it was cut all the way through to the face notch. I can see that this was probably the same concept applied a bit differently. 

It's an interesting cut for sure. I am mildly skeptical of its effectiveness seeing as there's a 1/4 inch plus of kerf the tenon would have to travel off lay line before coming into contact with the 'mortise' and, at that point, the crown would have likely moved off the intended lay by even more given the geometry. I suppose it would be some back-up though and a skosh more peace of mind. Intriguing. 

HolmenTree

I think you guys are thinking of a key notch cut what some arborist training companies train. Not recommended for felling trees, more for pulling down hung up trees.
Spruce_goose what you pictured above is a back strap with a fiber break out release.
I do quite a few of these when felling and pulling over heavy back leaners with my pickup.
I pre tension the pull rope then make my face cut and bored backcut leaving a strap of wood so the tree is not committed to fall.
I then make a slash or bore cut below the strap as deep as the strap is thick.
I go back to the truck and then pull the tree over tearing the strap out of the stump.

I like doing the  bore cut below the strap because sometimes you can drive a wedge in it and finish felling the tree.
Making a living with a saw since age 16.

Spruce_Goose

Holmen,

If I'm understanding you correctly, you are saying that the vertical length of uncut edge grain (pictured about dead center in the image) holds up the tree enough so that it doesn't close up the kerf (and fall backwards) but not so much that it can't be pulled over? Fiber break out release.'

This is a concept I've used on really small trees with slight or indeterminate leans when I can't get a wedge in: I make a back cut high enough so that the vertical edge grain prevents the kerf from closing, but not so much that I can't break it out when pushing it/pulling it over. 

Why would this be applied to larger trees, where a wedge would seemingly do a similar, perhaps better, job at these tasks?

HolmenTree

Quote from: Spruce_Goose on May 24, 2019, 03:42:32 PM
Why would this be applied to larger trees, where a wedge would seemingly do a similar, perhaps better, job at these tasks?
Quote from: HolmenTree on May 23, 2019, 10:02:17 PM
Spruce_goose what you pictured above is a back strap with a fiber break out release.
I do quite a few of these when felling and pulling over heavy back leaners with my pickup.
I pre tension the pull rope then make my face cut and bored backcut leaving a strap of wood so the tree is not committed to fall.
I then make a slash or bore cut below the strap as deep as the strap is thick.
I go back to the truck and then pull the tree over tearing the strap out of the stump.

I like doing the  bore cut below the strap because sometimes you can drive a wedge in it and finish felling the tree.
spruce_goose,
this fibre break out back strap allows me to safely walk back to the truck after making the face and bored backcut while the pull rope is highly tensioned.
Most times with enough rope tension from the truck I don't have to walk back to the truck to finish pulling it over. I just bore cut below the strap and drive a wedge in to break the strap out and fell the tree.

Looks like in your picture the arborist made the bore cut above the strap.

Making a living with a saw since age 16.

HolmenTree

spruce_goose,
To add to my last post, from a second look at your picture the arborist may have attempted to make a "Key notch" to fell that tree which is not recommended.

Here is my picture of a proper key notch for the proper procedure of pulling down hung up trees.


Making a living with a saw since age 16.

LeeB

Looking at this, it seems to me you would want to use a couple of wedges in cut number one before making the other 4. Would this be a good assumption?
Quote from: HolmenTree on May 24, 2019, 08:28:52 PM
spruce_goose,
To add to my last post, from a second look at your picture the arborist may have attempted to make a "Key notch" to fell that tree which is not recommended.

Here is my picture of a proper key notch for the proper procedure of pulling down hung up trees.





'98 LT40HDD/Lombardini, Case 580L, Cat D4C, JD 3032 tractor, JD 5410 tractor, Husky 346, 372 and 562XP's. Stihl MS180 and MS361, 1998 and 2006 3/4 Ton 5.9 Cummins 4x4's, 1989 Dodge D100 w/ 318, and a 1966 Chevy C60 w/ dump bed.

HolmenTree

Quote from: LeeB on May 25, 2019, 02:51:43 AM
Looking at this, it seems to me you would want to use a couple of wedges in cut number one before making the other 4. Would this be a good assumption?
Quote from: HolmenTree on May 24, 2019, 08:28:52 PM
spruce_goose,
To add to my last post, from a second look at your picture the arborist may have attempted to make a "Key notch" to fell that tree which is not recommended.

Here is my picture of a proper key notch for the proper procedure of pulling down hung up trees.



No by the time you make cut #5 the tree will drop enough from the looseness of the other 4 cuts to prevent binding.
Only time a wedge would be needed is if the tree had a side bend in it causing a twist at the cuts.
I always have at least one wedge in my pocket when I'm out cutting.
This is what I carry. If I need  bigger ones their in the truck.


 
Making a living with a saw since age 16.

lxskllr

That's a cute little wedge. I could use something like that when I'm packing through the woods. I almost always use a wedge for insurance. By the time I've thought about whether or not I should use one, I could have stuck a wedge and had it cut already. I think I'll make a couple little wood wedges this weekend. Eventually, I'll have one of my big wedges trashed enough to use at material for a little one.

Old Greenhorn

My gosh @HolmenTree that thing is tiny! Looks like it would barely fill a saw kerf, you must be a precision faller! Either that, or you just use that one to keep the cut open. I had to laugh when I pictured somebody hammering away on the with a full ax. ;D ;D :D :D
Tom Lindtveit, Woodsman Forest Products
Oscar 328 Band Mill, Husky 350, 450, 562, & 372 (Clone), Mule 3010, and too many hand tools. :) Retired and trying to make a living to stay that way. NYLT Certified.
OK, maybe I'm the woodcutter now.
I work with wood, There is a rumor I might be a woodworker.

HolmenTree

Quote from: Old Greenhorn on May 25, 2019, 07:18:30 PM
My gosh @HolmenTree that thing is tiny! Looks like it would barely fill a saw kerf, you must be a precision faller! Either that, or you just use that one to keep the cut open. I had to laugh when I pictured somebody hammering away on the with a full ax. ;D ;D :D :D
Now don't let your imagination get carried away greenhorn :D
Bigger then it looks, I got big viking hands. ;D ;D
Always in my pocket, even goes through the washing machine :)

Yep full 9/16" kerf and where it really shines is 75 feet off the ground tipping tops, and blocking down rounds.
I clip it's loop onto a small lanyard I have on my saddle so it doesn't fall into oblivion.
Making a living with a saw since age 16.

LeeB

Quote from: HolmenTree on May 25, 2019, 06:47:38 PM
Quote from: LeeB on May 25, 2019, 02:51:43 AM
Looking at this, it seems to me you would want to use a couple of wedges in cut number one before making the other 4. Would this be a good assumption?
Quote from: HolmenTree on May 24, 2019, 08:28:52 PM
spruce_goose,
To add to my last post, from a second look at your picture the arborist may have attempted to make a "Key notch" to fell that tree which is not recommended.

Here is my picture of a proper key notch for the proper procedure of pulling down hung up trees.



No by the time you make cut #5 the tree will drop enough from the looseness of the other 4 cuts to prevent binding.
Only time a wedge would be needed is if the tree had a side bend in it causing a twist at the cuts.
I always have at least one wedge in my pocket when I'm out cutting.
This is what I carry. If I need  bigger ones their in the truck.



So, you're saying cut number 5 will open up as you cut rather than pinch?
'98 LT40HDD/Lombardini, Case 580L, Cat D4C, JD 3032 tractor, JD 5410 tractor, Husky 346, 372 and 562XP's. Stihl MS180 and MS361, 1998 and 2006 3/4 Ton 5.9 Cummins 4x4's, 1989 Dodge D100 w/ 318, and a 1966 Chevy C60 w/ dump bed.

Spruce_Goose

Also a fan of the wedge. Seems ideal for avoiding pinches. I used to carry tiny metal ones for keeping Silky saw kerfs from closing in the backcountry. 

In the key notch technique depicted in your image, Holman, is that essentially in place of establishing a more typical side-face-notch and hinge (because the force on a hinge in that scenario may be too great for it to hold)? It's obviously a lot more work to create that tongue and groove than to just cut a face notch on the side and establish a hinge.

HolmenTree

Quote from: LeeB on May 25, 2019, 11:53:14 PM
Quote from: HolmenTree on May 25, 2019, 06:47:38 PM
Quote from: LeeB on May 25, 2019, 02:51:43 AM
Looking at this, it seems to me you would want to use a couple of wedges in cut number one before making the other 4. Would this be a good assumption?
Quote from: HolmenTree on May 24, 2019, 08:28:52 PM
spruce_goose,
To add to my last post, from a second look at your picture the arborist may have attempted to make a "Key notch" to fell that tree which is not recommended.

Here is my picture of a proper key notch for the proper procedure of pulling down hung up trees.



No by the time you make cut #5 the tree will drop enough from the looseness of the other 4 cuts to prevent binding.
Only time a wedge would be needed is if the tree had a side bend in it causing a twist at the cuts.
I always have at least one wedge in my pocket when I'm out cutting.
This is what I carry. If I need  bigger ones their in the truck.



So, you're saying cut number 5 will open up as you cut rather than pinch?
Don't just sit here and babble about it....go out and try it  
:)
Making a living with a saw since age 16.

LeeB

Only trees around my present location are well head christmas trees and no chainsaw anywhere near here. It'll have to wait until I get home again. 
'98 LT40HDD/Lombardini, Case 580L, Cat D4C, JD 3032 tractor, JD 5410 tractor, Husky 346, 372 and 562XP's. Stihl MS180 and MS361, 1998 and 2006 3/4 Ton 5.9 Cummins 4x4's, 1989 Dodge D100 w/ 318, and a 1966 Chevy C60 w/ dump bed.

HolmenTree

Quote from: Spruce_Goose on May 26, 2019, 08:59:46 AM
Also a fan of the wedge. Seems ideal for avoiding pinches. I used to carry tiny metal ones for keeping Silky saw kerfs from closing in the backcountry.

In the key notch technique depicted in your image, Holman, is that essentially in place of establishing a more typical side-face-notch and hinge (because the force on a hinge in that scenario may be too great for it to hold)? It's obviously a lot more work to create that tongue and groove than to just cut a face notch on the side and establish a hinge.
The key with hangups or any other hazardous situation is "control".
Cutting a side facecut and backcut in a hungup diagonal tree trunk under uncertain tensions is definitely a gamble.
Key notch is not for everyone but a little practice does wonders ;)
Making a living with a saw since age 16.

DonT

Holman Tree is that Dwayne Neustaeter from arborculture Canada in that picture?  I have a pocket wedge like that on a carabiner on my suspenders.has come in handy a couple of times up a tree.I got mine from treestuff,years ago.

HolmenTree

Don, yes that is Dwayne.
From his 2011 manual pictured below.
Dwayne like Game of Logging founder Soren Ericsson both had the luxury of learning tips from
woodcutters from all over the world.
Enabling them to train less experienced trainees and profit from knowledge passed on through generations of laborers of wood.


 
Making a living with a saw since age 16.

Old Greenhorn

Quote from: HolmenTree on May 25, 2019, 09:04:03 PMNow don't let your imagination get carried away greenhorn Bigger then it looks, I got big viking hands. Always in my pocket, even goes through the washing machine


I have viking hands too, just skinnier than yours. It's a cute wedge and I can see where it would be handy. When I started I got some of those 5 inch homeowner wedges and quickly realized my folly, casting them aside for decent wedge lengths and lifts for driving trees against the lean. Now recently I have taken the habit of keeping one of those small wedges in my pouch and and shove it in the cut when I am bucking long stems into logs. They are also DanG handy on the mill to hold the kerf open on heavy slabs. I am gonna look for one of those little ones.
Tom Lindtveit, Woodsman Forest Products
Oscar 328 Band Mill, Husky 350, 450, 562, & 372 (Clone), Mule 3010, and too many hand tools. :) Retired and trying to make a living to stay that way. NYLT Certified.
OK, maybe I'm the woodcutter now.
I work with wood, There is a rumor I might be a woodworker.

Old Greenhorn

Quote from: HolmenTree on May 26, 2019, 10:38:44 PMDon, yes that is Dwayne. From his 2011 manual pictured below.


@HolmenTree where can that book be found. I did some searching and can't find it anywhere. Looks like a good read.
Tom Lindtveit, Woodsman Forest Products
Oscar 328 Band Mill, Husky 350, 450, 562, & 372 (Clone), Mule 3010, and too many hand tools. :) Retired and trying to make a living to stay that way. NYLT Certified.
OK, maybe I'm the woodcutter now.
I work with wood, There is a rumor I might be a woodworker.

Magicman

Home Depot has the Pocket Wedge, free shipping to your nearest store.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

HolmenTree

A wedge is only as good as its taper.
I have some with too much thickness taper and they're useless.
I got some 10" & 12" Husqvarna labelled wedges and their heads are as thin as some of my much smaller ones. They lift and drive really nice.
Making a living with a saw since age 16.

Magicman

My 10" Husqvarna wedges are 1 1/8" thick.  On the rare occasion that I (think that I) need more lift I stack/use my Black Bear Rifled tree falling wedges.  My go-to wedges are 8" X 1".
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

DonT

Holman tree, I took my ISA Tree risk assessment qualification with Wayne in April . He is an excellent teacher and his company arboriculture Canada has been a leader in training climbers and tree workers for many years. I have taken many of his courses. He showed us a video of his son assisting a young man in a wheelchair up 100ft into a tree.

Thank You Sponsors!