Tired of poor surveys

[jrdwyer]

So I am out in the wood trying to follow a land survey from 1982 before I begin marking a 250 acre tract of woods. Well it sure looks good on paper, but as I tromp the woods looking for pins, corner stones, etc., I realize that this surveyor did the absolute minimum amount of work possible in the field. Stuff like skinny rebar driven all the way into the ground with no adjacent steel posts or bearing trees. Of course such pins are almost impossible to find. Or referencing a corner stone with no adjacent pin/stake placement or bearing tree noted. On hilly terrain full of rocks of various shapes and sizes, agian next to impossible to find. The only good information I got in the field was done by Forest Service employees on the adjacent tract. Two FS aluminum bearing tree markers from 1979 that were still attached to the trees and in good shape and legible. I had no problem following these markers to the nearby corners.

I really find it amazing that so many land surveys are done with the assumption that no one will ever come back later to rework the lines. But hey, the unknowing landowners just let it happen.

[Ron Wenrich]

I've never seen a bearing tree here in the East.  Most of the old surveys are pretty good unless they go to the stick in the ice or to a point.  

I had one survey where the landowner had all the pin buried under the ground.  Seems he was having his above ground corners destroyed.  

I also had a surveyor who went and took the metes and bounds of a 1780 survey and used laser technology to find the corners.  We walked to well established corners and he said that wasn't the corner - it was over here another 25 ft.  He screwed up all the old surveys by not running to the existing corners.

Some surveyors might be good in the woods, but a lot of them aren't.  Then again, a lot of landowners don't want to spend the money to get a good survey and do even less for line maintainence.

[Ron Scott]

There seems to be more and more land survey problems or errors when the surveyors don't work from the "original" survey notes. They just assume GIS results, leave poor markings, etc.

I'm currently waiting on one survey line to be corrected in court before we harvest the timber. A few other surveys in progress by registered surveyors.

If the landowner can't show me their property lines and corners through a registered landline survey, I don't do the timber until they have the property surveyed. They need to be responsible for their land ownership and take responsibility for their land lines.

[OneWithWood]

My property and the surrounding tracts have been surveyed numerous times by different surveying outfits.  With each survey my southeast corner moved about 30 feet.  
The last survey lined up with where I thought the corner ought ot be based on my novice calculations.  I quickly stuck a fence post in the ground and placed a 2" 8' pvc pipe over it.  I also placed fence posts on pipes at the stakes on the perimeter line.  You cannot mistake where my property lines are.
Every election when someone runs for county surveyor they promise to locate all the original corner stones and correct all the ensuing surveys.  Once they are elected I think some have actually gone out and located a handfull of stones.  When they realize the havoc that would ensue if they corrected all the property lines they let the matter drop! :

[SwampDonkey]

I've also seen some slobby surveying done over the years in our area. Trouble is that sloppiness gets replicated and compounded throughout the survey grid. I know 3 areas that the lines as marked in the field are as much as 100 meters off the way they are mapped. I mean some areas a real obvious such as old cleared fields from the original land grant. Now when its an old grown up field and there are plow marks or rock piles or cedar line fences in place along the old field, how the heck can the new surveyed line end up offset 100 meters from the edge of the original field? One fellow I know it took him over 20 years to get his land mapped properlly. Everything was marked correct in the field but the mapping was a mess to say the least. This owner was concerned because he was surrounded by 2 forest companies and he has 3000 acres of silviculture completed on his lands over a 25 year period. He wasn't willing to give that up without a fight. Then there is another problem with joe landowner taking his axe and paint out and establishing his own boundary lines illegally. You can tell these sites when the owner follows the contour of a ridge top for his new line. No compass I know will point north in the shape of a snake.  Well I take that back. We did find a rounded hump in the middle of a cutblock that had magnetic influence. As you walked by this hump in a straight path, the needle pointed toward it. We had to eye-ball those cruise striplines. ;)

[rebocardo]

re:poor survey

I agree.

When I had a city property done, I paid $650 (back in 91) to have a family business that had been doing it for over 100 years and did most of the city come and do my small lot. When a guy pulls out an original blueprint to copy that his grandfather made, you are in the right boat. A poor survey can cost you money in the long run.

When my property in Maine was done, I followed it less then a year later and marked trees myself with tape and paint using a GPS before it got over grown. Very easy to lose a pin when a tree falls on it!

I guess the guy did an okay job, but, flagging little branches were the deer can eat the tape and calling it good is not the best idea.

[SwampDonkey]

@ Rebo et al

I've seen curious bear remove tape from trees too, as you say deer might. Especially in hardwood ridges where they go looking for beech nuts. You can tell when the bear has been around when you look up into the beech tree canopy and see a bear nest where he has been pulling in the branches and breaking them to obtain the nuts. I swear those animals are related to tree sloths, except they move alot swifter.

[jrdwyer]

As a follow up to the above message, I talked to my client, and he said that the surveyor stoped doing "that type of work" four years ago. Also, unfortunately, unless I can verify the location of one important corner stone from adjacent Forest Service records, it looks like another $1-3K minimal survey before the timber is cut again (last cut in 1983).

I have no problem flagging straight lines from known corner to known corner for timber sale purposes, but so many landowners ignore the importance of permanent markers. And surveyors don't help much with plats that give the apperance of permanence with notations to pins and corner stones, but are in reality pretty useless in the field.

[SwampDonkey]

I was with my surveyor and his helper when we did our lines last spring. I brushed with a chainsaw and the helper ribboned the line of site. I returned a week later and blazed the line on my way in and painted on my way out with red paint. The spray paint from cans is only temporary, so I use a brush and 1 gallon can. I did use a spray paint on one line with the surveyor that day. I went up there last week and found that the paint is disintegrating fast, shoulda used from the can. We are selling that lot this spring so its up to the next guy to keep updating the paint on his lines I guess. But knowing him and his work ethic, it won't get done. I paint my lines every 3 years because I have alot of fast growing second growth. I see the neighbor plowed over on me last fall, so this spring I intend to take pictures of the torn up line for future reference. There are evidence trees uprooted by his plow. ;)

[Ron Wenrich]

I have never found plow lines or stone walls to be particularly useful in finding line.  In some locales, farmers went right to the line, in others they stayed off of them.  

I did find one survey that followed an old snake fence.  We found piles of rock where the fence had originally been located.  The land had long reverted back to forest and had 36" red oak on it.

[SwampDonkey]

Ron:

Different circumstances I suppose down your way. But, up here the line fence, rock wall or cedar rail fence was the line.  Of course there are some properties with fencing all through the woods for their cattle that can't be relied on. You can even see from the orthophoto mapping of our area where the lines are drawn up on the map, they will follow those line fences without exception. Well I guess a couple exceptions could be an amalgamation of adjacent properties or creating subdivisions. Where I find some survey errors is the reference point of the survey. Our area has alot of unbuilt 'Crown Reserved' Roads. These reserves seperate the original landgrants between communities. Sometimes a sevyor makes a mistake and measures from the built highway instead of the 'Crown Reserve'. This happened to us and the neighbor moved in on us and cut 6 acres of prime cedar for free because of this error. Our farm goes clear to the 'Crown Reserve', this survey cut the Northeast corner of the lot short because of an incorrect reference. On the west side of the river here, there are 7 'Crown Reserves' seperating farms and communities which end at the US/Canada border. The communities are: Florenceville,Greenfield,Back Greenfield-Summerfield, Greg Settlement,Knoxford-Listerville, Hartley Settlement-Tracey Mills, and Lower and Upper Royalton.

Different system of surveying up here I guess. Its even different in parts of Quebec, where the land was granted in relation to the Church.

 ;)

[rebocardo]

If you can get it into the woods, a cement filled lolly column makes a great corner marker.

re:bears
One of the easiest way to tell a bear has been around is to look at the ground and watch where you step. No mistaking those piles :-D

I will take a look at the tops of my beech and apple trees next time I am up in ME. Never occured to me the bears might do that.

[SwampDonkey]

rebo:

We carry the axe for another reason, its to cut and square cedar posts for corners. I shove'r in the ground where the surveyor says X marks the spot. They last a long time but you need to pound them into the ground once in awhile because of frost heaving. ;)

I've got pressure treated 4 foot 4x4 in  my corners, painted red. In the remote areas of the rest of the farm we have cedar posts though.

cheers

[Corley5]

I've driven galvanized highway sign posts in on our corners.  The old cedar corner posts have about had it.  On the lines them selves I've planted pieces of light poles 100ft apart where the cedar posts are falling over.

[SwampDonkey]

Corley:

That should be permanent for a long time to come. Wish everyone looked after their lines. The least they could do is brush them out or paint them for visibility.

[Scott]

 Wrap aluminum foil around marker trees and staple them into place then paint the foil a bright colour. We had one of our lines maked out this way, held out pretty good.

[SwampDonkey]

Scott:

ummm  ;)

Here's a tootsie roll type question:

How many rolls of aluminum foil does it take to go around a 435 acre lot and then sub-divide a 70 acre lot with it?  errm   :  Any left over aluminum foil to spare? ;)

[Stan]

I thought they used aluminium foil in Canada.  :P

[SwampDonkey]

I only use foil on ma sutharn fried chicken  :D ;D

[Scott]

 Swamp Donkey, the lot next to ours did thier lines this way. The one that ran next to ours was 500 metres long. I'm not sure if the owner did this or a surveyer but it's been at least ten years since it was put there and seems to be holding up well plus if you don't paint the foil it gives your lines that cool space age/ futuristic look :D

[SwampDonkey]

Scott

errm ;)

Must be a feller with a lot of time on his hands. I'de do it if I was paid by the hour and supplied with the foil. But alas that type of work is paid on piece-work ($$/meter). Leaving that foil unpainted draws wildlife like curious coons and bear. These animlas have learned that food is wraped sometimes inside.  :D ;D

[Ron Scott]

Use Nelson's "survey grade" tree marking paint to mark the lines. It lasts a number of years. Best to use steel stakes for a permanent line though. Routine maintenance of one's property lines should be a recommended practice.

[Corley5]

Adverse Possession comes into play after a time too.  Here in Mi in as little as 7 years if you've treated a piece of property as your own and have maintained it you can own it and there's not much the actual owner can do about it.  Most of the old line fences around here are off by several feet or more but they've been the agreed upon line for almost a hundred years.  So in comes a developer has his new piece of subdivision ground surveyed according to the property description and he gains ground on the farmer next door or so he thinks.  Off to court they go and the judge rules in the farmer's favor because he's farmed right up to the existing line fence just as his father did and that was the line that had been agreed upon with the other property's previous owner.  Judges don't want to involve themselves in what's been the status quo in a neighborhood for ever.  Many surveyors around here survey the existing corners and fencelines and record them as the actual lines.

[SwampDonkey]

I've used Nelson's and it only holds up 3 years on my lines, so I went to red Tremclad paint, lasts even longer and costs $22 a gallon. Nelson's is 8 bucks a can.

Up here surveyors have to go by historical evidence, there's no other way unless that evidence is in dispute between landowners. 99.9% of the time, there's no dispute. If there is a dispute I beleive the surveyor has the ruling on behalf of Service New Brunswick. Going to court doesn't really help either side, since the judge is no expert on such matters. Its still the surveyors expertice that will be called upon for a settlement.

[Frickman]

I agree that a property owner should maintain his lines. Around here few do though. Most of the times I look at timber the landowner has no idea where his lines are, so I require them to have a survey done and to defend the lines in court. The only landowners I've found who usually know where there lines are farmers.

I've found that linseed oil based paint works very well. A good coat of white will last at least ten years.