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Two part question about rot resistance in wood

Started by elitts, September 15, 2017, 04:58:38 PM

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elitts

I'm an Asst. Scoutmaster looking to start up a pioneering group within my troop. (ie: build stuff with lashing) This requires finding longish (4'-12') wood poles with diameters ranging from 2" - 4".  I suspect the cheapest way to do it is to find fresh green wood, de-bark them and dry them myself for long term repeated use.  Using downed wood doesn't work well because you can never really know if any rot has set in and I'd rather not find out when a scout is 12' up in a tower the boys built.  I know some people just use 2x2s, 3x3s and 4x4s and round them off on their own, but that seems wrong somehow. (and expensive)


First Question:  What kind of wood would you recommend I look for that is reasonably rot resistant (the goal is to store and use these poles for years) but also light enough to be manageable by teenagers?  I'm in Southwest Michigan.  I had considered Locust, but I don't know if the weight would be worth it.

Second Question: Where would you look for something like this?  I suspect the local mills would be a waste of time since I don't need milled wood.  I kind of figure the easiest thing would be saplings and young trees, but I suspect the Dept of Natural Resources would frown upon me going into the State forest and chopping down saplings at random. (plus it would rather violate Leave No Trace principles)

Thank-you in advance for any suggestions!

TKehl

How long will the material be in contact with the ground?

It sounds like you will be setting these up for a weekend perhaps?  Perhaps a couple times a year?  If so, rot resistance is of minimal concern once the saplings are dry.  Similar to the pine in a typical house.

I'd ask if any of the boys in the troops have some acreage or grandparents have acreage that the poles could be cut from. 
In the long run, you make your own luck – good, bad, or indifferent. Loretta Lynn

John Mc

Our troop does something similar. The structures are strictly temporary, intended to teach various lashing techniques. We generally put the up and take them down in the same day. As TKehl mentioned, rot resistance is not all that important as long as you have a dry place to store them. A wood guru friend of mine is fond of saying "rot doesn't happen because wood got wet, it happens because the wood failed to get dry".

Black Locust is certainly rot resistant, but you are right the it's a lot of weight, which you really don't need to put up with (it might be a good choice for a permanent structure). We use a lot of cedar - light weight and rot resistant, but we also use anything at hand.

As far as sources: I live in a heavily wooded area. If the scouts ever needed poles, all they'd have to do is put out the word and they would appear. I've got plenty of cedar on my property, and would cut some for them if I didn't already have what they needed. If I didn't have it, our town has an "unofficial" FaceBook page - putting up a request on that, or on  the scout troops page would likely generate more poles than we knew what to do with.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

Don P

I cleaned out the poplar, sweet birch and beech pole stock on my land and then put out the word. Yup more than needed. I got to wander another couple of farm woodlots and got what I needed taking care to clean up fencelines and trails along my way, more than cleaning up behind myself, leaving it where they would be happy to have me back. The poles live in a barn and get used by several groups. Those are all non durable species but they don't stay wet, I'm more concerned about bugs and will replace them when that time comes.

On the current job we've been doing the logging as well and a BIL of the family who is a scoutmaster came into the woods one day looking so we pointed him to where the poles were. Visiting with a logging operation and explaining what you need and for the scouts and I'd imagine you would have plenty.

One thing I did was saved forks up on the tops of poles, bear wood on wood in high load situations rather than relying on lashing, teach common sense construction during pioneering... show that triangles are immutable where rectangles unbraced by a triangularizing brace become wreck-tangles under load.

All my uprights here are forked poles, supporting, nesting and locking the portal frame;


Another bridge building/ shelter project here;
http://blueridgediscoverycenter.org/blueridgediscoverycenterblog/2016/6/13/explorers-adventure-day-camp-i

If you happen upon a hollow log while cruising...

mike_belben

I use a lot of wood poles around the homestead these days.  Red maple tends to make a nice straight pole but itll get mushrooms and worms pretty quick if left on the ground.  Itll debark real easy when cut in spring of if left in the dirt for a few months and the bugs lube it up. 

I use a sharpened spade shovel to debark. 
Praise The Lord

coxy

I just wanted to thank you guys for doing what you do for the kids  we have nothing for the kids to do we wanted to start a rifle club also but was told it was to dangerous for the kids  ::) ??? errrrr >:(

Don P

I hear you, I chafe a bit. There are a lot of tools and things I'd like to be able to show and work with. My parents were pretty tolerant of minor bleeding compared to nowadays  :D.

There are some good pioneering projects in these links;
http://www.thedump.scoutscan.com/pionprojects.pdf
http://www.hawoa.com/files/PioneeringProjects.pdf

thecfarm

I would let a group like yours on my land to cut what you need.
Maybe the state would let you too. Not like it's for your own personal gain.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

TKehl

Quote from: coxy on September 16, 2017, 07:18:55 PM
I just wanted to thank you guys for doing what you do for the kids  we have nothing for the kids to do we wanted to start a rifle club also but was told it was to dangerous for the kids  ::) ??? errrrr >:(

Don't want to derail the topic, but have you looked into 4H?  We have a shooting sports program here as part of 4H.  .22, archery, black powder, air pistol, trap...

Of course this is MO, ... not NY... 
In the long run, you make your own luck – good, bad, or indifferent. Loretta Lynn

John Mc

We've done shooting with the Boy Scouts here. I know they've done it an an official boy scout facility. I think they've done it elsewhere as well. One of the Scout leader's property?? But perhaps I'm confusing it with some other event.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

elitts

Alright.  Well if rot resistance isn't something to be concerned about, then I will stick with lightweight.  I know there is at least some cedar in the woods in SW Michigan.  I'll also take a look in my own tiny lot.  I've got mostly Red Maple, but I wasn't considering it usable due to rot concerns.  I guess I'll go ahead and use it for the smaller diameter poles and just hunt down cedar for the 3" - 4" poles.

Thank-you all for the input.


Cedarman

Sycamore makes for good strong poles and light weight when dry.
Keep up the good work.
I am in the pink when sawing cedar.

mike_belben

If laid out flat on the ground red maple will get funky in a season.  I have used a lot of it for little projects where its stayed off the ground..  and at two years still looking fine.   Straight and light.  Plus the deer will come running for the coppice sprouts off every red maple you cut!
Praise The Lord

Momatt

Good for you doing something good for those boys.  I have eastern red cedars that would be perfect for your needs, but I'm way south in Missouri.  I wish I had another crack at scouting.  I took my boy to a meeting, and they said no troop unless someone would volunteer to be the leader.  No one raised their hands so I volunteered.  I knew nothing about scouting, never was one.  The only instruction I got was to go to the Scout store and get "the book"  Well I didn't know what to ask for and they sold me the book for the boys, not the pack leader book.  Of course the boys book was worthless.  For one year I had them over once a month we made cider, shot BB guns, made bows, let them drive my bulldozer, I taught them all to make a simple deadfall trap and sent them all home with a set of the sticks.  I let them all pound on metal in my blacksmith shop. (That's actually a sacrifice, little stinkers hit the anvil more than the hot metal).    We had fires, weenie roasts and a general good time but of course it had nothing to do with he scouts, ranks etc.  I always fed them, and often gave the winners of the bb-gun cracker shoot a $10 prize.  Also apparently you can't shoot anything outside of a boyscout facility.  One mom got on my butt about that and I decided I'd had enough. Last I heard the boys all got bored and quit.   If I had a little instruction I think I could have done a good job.  Oh well, my son gets to do all kinds of fun stuff, I was trying to give some other boys a chance. 

mike_belben

Praise The Lord

coxy

Momatt that's exactly what I'm afraid of     doing something a little different and get a pithed off parent trying to sue me  cause there kid got a scratch from a berry brier  because we went on the wrong walk

TKehl

I worry just a bit about that from the KC scout group that camps at our place.  But we don't charge them, IF anything every came up, hopefully that would help.  They like that they can actually see stars.   :D

As for being sued, another plus for 4H leaders.  We are covered through Missouri University Extension insurance policy.  Though, perhaps the Boy Scouts have the same thing for their leaders, I just am not aware.
In the long run, you make your own luck – good, bad, or indifferent. Loretta Lynn

mike_belben

Not charging makes a huge difference in all new england states.  Free recreation landowners are protected under whats typically called "hold harmless" clauses.  Each state words it a little different, check on your state.   I wasna land access rep for a 4wd association in a past life, and that was a major major point for landowners.
Praise The Lord

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