Life changing decision : I need advice

[DannyK]

Hello everyone, my name is Dan and I'm new here. I kind of need advice. My story is actually long but I will try to keep it as short as possible.
Let me start by saying this "I want to be a forester". I've been wanting this for about a year now. The problem is that I'm 30 years old and I live in Thailand. What I want to do is to go to college in the US (University of Wisconsin - Stevens Point to be exact) and work there in WI after graduate. But to do so, would risk my future. My life here is very stable. I have a very stable job that I'm pretty sure that it can keep me fed for the rest of my life. I don't know in which direction I should go. I want to go so bad but I'm afraid that I won't be able to find a job in the US after I graduate due to the fact that it's difficult even for US citizens to find a job and it's supposed to be even more difficult for me to find a job as an immigrant. Not to mention that I will have to spend a lot of money for education (at least 30K per year including everything, tuition, living expense, etc) and I can't legally work there due to my visa status and I'm a very law-abiding person so I won't work in a restaurant for cash like many international students do. So I need a reality check from you guys. How possible is it? You can read more about me below if you have time and I really hope you do so that you can understand why it's hard for me to make this decision. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. And sorry for my English. I hope you can understand my English just fine.

Here's more info about me and my situation:

Why do I want to be a forester?
-Although my life is good, I don't feel fulfilled at all. It's like I live because I'm still alive and I have no ultimate goal in life. If I continue living like this there's a really high chance that I will feel so empty when I'm old. I'll feel like I'm so useless. I've tried to figure out what I really want in my life but I couldn't find the answer. So I think, when I don't really have personal life goal, I should just do something to make this world a better place even for a little. And my love for nature has been growing in the past few years. So being a forester must be a good fit for me. I get to take care of nature and be happy at the same time.

What I might have to give up if I follow my dream?
-My family, houses, cars, money, friends, very stable job, etc. Because I want to work and spend the rest of my life there if I can. I work at my family's business. We do have several businesses and I can honestly say that if we sell all of our assets, we'll have enough money to live a good (but not luxurious) life for the rest of our lives here without working at all. It's too bad that it's not enough for living in the US though. So basically I have to choose between "easy life but I might feel empty here" or "working my butt off all of my life there but I might feel fulfilled".

My background:
I know next to nothing about forestry. I have a B.Eng in Software engineering and a MS in Information Systems from New Jersey institute of Tech. I've worked here as a (construction hardware) store manager since I came back from the US after I got my master's degree.

[Ljohnsaw]

First, let me say that your English is better than most around here  :D :D

Second - If you are single, I'd say go for it.  If not for the degree, for the adventure of following what you think is your dream. 

Getting and keeping a job is "easy" if you have the right work ethic.  Work hard, take advice (constructive criticism) and learn/improve what you do.  Any (good) boss wants an employee that WANTS to work.  I managed a computer department for a number of years (retired last June).  I had a great crew that wanted to do great things - but there were a few that we had to let go because they were just doing their time and did not enjoy their time working or would not take advice and improve.  They were just mediocre workers with bad attitudes that would drag the rest down.

Perhaps get a job (work visa) as you near your degree and/or jobs over the summers?

[Clark]

Is there any reason you can get an education in forestry in Thailand?

Why do I want to be a forester?
-Although my life is good, I don't feel fulfilled at all. It's like I live because I'm still alive and I have no ultimate goal in life. If I continue living like this there's a really high chance that I will feel so empty when I'm old. I'll feel like I'm so useless. I've tried to figure out what I really want in my life but I couldn't find the answer.

You came hear seeking advice on a career in forestry but the above sentences tell me there is more to your search than a career. I can tell you that a career will not permanently fulfill the emptiness you express above.  Nor will material goods, accomplishments or relationships on this earth. I believe that a knowledge of, love for and obedience to your Creator is the only thing that will be fulfilling over a lifetime.

Clark

[DannyK]

Thank you for your input, ljohnsaw

I'm single but my family (my dad, older sister and older brother) wouldn't like my idea so much. It's difficult to explain but it's Asian family. We think differently. I actually have to ask my dad for permission to go!

I work hard and I'm responsible. I honestly think I've got everything you mentioned. About the visa, I have no idea about the process. I only know that I have to find a job within 2 months after graduation (if I remember correctly). I don't know how willing the employers in this filed are to hire immigrants. With student visa, I can only work in the school.

[DannyK]

Is there any reason you can get an education in forestry in Thailand?

Actually, my undergrad school is the best in the country for forestry. But I don't want to because I don't want to work here as a forester. A forester here earns about $500 a month or maybe less. It could be a bit higher but it's unlikely. I can't live like that. I'm not willing to sacrifice my life that much. Not to mention that the system is so corrupted. Moreover, I want to live somewhere much cooler than Thailand. My body can't take the heat here. I sweat all the time if I'm not in A/C room.

I have no religion. I'm agnostic. I don't understand the meaning or purpose of life. I just think that if we have good nature, everyone is happy. Will it make me feel fulfilled? I honestly don't know but I'm sure it's a good thing to do.

[ellmoe]

   Forestry jobs are not exactly high paying here either. It's just a guess, but $500/mo. living in Thailand may be roughly equivalent to salary/costs in the USA. You should research this if you haven't.
   Good luck.
Mark

[Magicman]

Welcome to the Forestry Forum, DannyK.

My only question is one that you should ask yourself because you said that you wanted to feel like you contribute something and also be self fulfilling.  You have opportunities if you will look.

Question;  What do you do with your time when you are not working?  Theoretically we all have 8 hours for work, 8 hours for rest and refreshment, which leaves 8 hours for expanding our own horizons and service to our fellowman.

You seem to be trapped and asking others what you should do with your life.  That answer has to come from you. 

[Ron Wenrich]

I have to ask why Wisconsin?  Why do you think all things would end well there for you as to anywhere else in the world?  Why forestry and not another profession? 

Happiness and fulfillment comes from within.  Looking for it in others is futile search. 

[thecfarm]

If it was me,I could work at a job that did not make me happy as long as family and friends was close by. But if I had to work at a job I liked,but no family and friends,not so good.

[DannyK]

Thank you, Mark, Magicman, Ron and thecfarm for your answers.

   Forestry jobs are not exactly high paying here either. It's just a guess, but $500/mo. living in Thailand may be roughly equivalent to salary/costs in the USA. You should research this if you haven't.
   Good luck.
Mark

Starting salary is around 30K-40K, am I right? I know that it's not high paying job but I'm not looking for a high paying job. My life won't be easy with that income but it'll be enough for me to live or survive.

My only question is one that you should ask yourself because you said that you wanted to feel like you contribute something and also be self fulfilling.  You have opportunities if you will look.

Question;  What do you do with your time when you are not working?  Theoretically we all have 8 hours for work, 8 hours for rest and refreshment, which leaves 8 hours for expanding our own horizons and service to our fellowman.

You seem to be trapped and asking others what you should do with your life.  That answer has to come from you.

I've asked myself all the time for years and I couldn't find the answer. I'm still looking for the answer. That's one of the reasons that I want to go somewhere and do something that I've never done. Hopefully, I'll find something along the way.

I work 9 hours a day, 7 days a week. I know that it sounds horrible for most of people but I'm ok with it (not that I like it). I spend 1-2 hours working out and the rest for watching tv, reading news, books, chatting with friends, etc (nothing particular). You're right I'm somewhat trapped. I know that in the end I have to answer myself but now I'm trying to gather information, thoughts and wisdom from people who have much more experience.

I have to ask why Wisconsin?  Why do you think all things would end well there for you as to anywhere else in the world?  Why forestry and not another profession? 

Happiness and fulfillment comes from within.  Looking for it in others is futile search.

Initially, I thought about New Zealand too but moving to New Zealand is equally as hard to moving to the US. Education in NZ is as expensive as in the US. So I started looking for school in the US and I found one (UWSP) that seems to match my preference. To be honest, I don't know much about the US. I lived there in NJ for just 1.5 years. I can't find any other place because I know so little. If I have to move somewhere, I want to move to an English-speaking country. I'm not really eager to learn the third language. I can't even speak English properly, let alone 3rd language. So US is an easy choice for me (compared to other countries that I've never been to).

If it was me,I could work at a job that did not make me happy as long as family and friends was close by. But if I had to work at a job I liked,but no family and friends,not so good.

I don't have good relationship with family. Truth be told, I want to stay away from them but that's not the main reason that I want to move somewhere else. About friends, it'll be hard for me too if I won't be able to see them ever again. Nowadays I rarely meet my friends because I live in my hometown but all of my close friends live in Bangkok. I meet them a few times a year when I go to Bangkok. I talk to them everyday though. I can see that we'll be even farther apart when they're married and have kids. So I have to go my own path.

[LeeB]

I have to agree with the other's. I don't think you will find what you are looking for just by changing locations or work. I think you need to seek why you are unhappy with your life now so much that you want to make a complete change. If you are chasing a dream, you may find it fulfilled. If you are running away, you could well find that your unhappiness may lessen for a time, only to come back.

[DannyK]

I have to agree with the other's. I don't think you will find what you are looking for just by changing locations or work. I think you need to seek why you are unhappy with your life now so much that you want to make a complete change. If you are chasing a dream, you may find it fulfilled. If you are running away, you could well find that your unhappiness may lessen for a time, only to come back.

I don't know if it's ok to talk about it here because this thread might derail. You're probably right but I don't know what to do.

[woodenboater]

Many of my friends have uprooted and moved around the world and my wife left her family behind in Australia fwiw. One must follow their own path, if they truly know what that path is and understand the sacrifices that will be made.

I can only offer this oft repeated saying..."The grass is always greener on the other side".

[DannyK]

Thank you woodenboater for your advice.
I'll use my best judgement and take my time to thoroughly think about it. I still have a lot of time.

By the way, I'm looking at this program ,Forest Ecosystem Restoration and Management, in UWSP ( http://www.uwsp.edu/cnr/Pages/undergraduate.aspx )
here's how the program looks like http://www.uwsp.edu/cnr/Documents/CNR%20Majors%20Planning%20Sheets/GEP%20Forestry%20-%20Ecosystem.pdf
I also think about taking minor in Forestry.

Do you have any suggestion on this? Good school? Good program?

I've been extremely appreciated everyone's advice so far. Thank you everyone

[SliverPicker]

If you have to borrow $30,000 per year every year to get a forestry degree I would advise to NOT do it.  You will start your career in such a deep financial hole that you will likely never get out of it.  Write a business plan to see how feasible getting a degree in the U.S. is.  Take into account all expenses right down to utility payments.

[SLawyer Dave]

Danny:

I think the previous posters have brought up a lot of good ideas and concerns.  I have also had quite a bit of experience working with Laotian and Hmong families, so while your family and specific culture is certainly different, I do have some idea of the concessions that your close knit, elder centric society/family entails.  So I want to suggest something a bit out of the box.  One of the lessons I have learned from my "Asian" (I know this is a horrible generalization but since you said it first I will run with it) clients, above all else, your family will respect and appreciate financial success.  If you "desperately want to become a forester", then it should not matter where you do so.  I do realize that because a "forester" is not held in high regard in Thailand, your family would not be supportive of such a career move, so lets change the title and job description.


Two different ideas here, one having you go back to university for another graduate degree, and the other just to go into business for yourself.

1.
Given that you already have a graduate degree, and you mention that your undergrad university in Thailand has a very good forestry degree/department:  instead of "Forestry", look into "Forestry Conservation", or sometimes titled, "Resource Conservation".  Both of these fields are in a huge growth pattern internationally.  From what I have read, Thailand is very worried about the continued loss of its forests, and is starting to really step up enforcement and increase controls.  Again, from my experience, your family would probably welcome the idea of you working for the government in a very stable, and respectful field of work, where you are charged with helping to protect the beauty and viability of the Thailand forests for future generations.  Further, this kind of degree and experience is very transferable to other Asian and South American countries which are the ones most at risk and suffering from both illegal and unregulated forestry practices.   If this is something that would interest you, spend some time researching where your government is going with this area, and speak to some of the current workers/government officials that are already working in it.  You will likely find that they are very proud of the work they are doing, and you may well pick up some good ideas about how to customize your degree to best fit what they will be looking for.  You also might get lucky enough to find a mentor who may be able to open some doors for you in the future.

2.
Instead of a "forester" working for someone else, why not be a Lumber Mill Owner? Thailand has some beautiful wood species.  There are lots of crafts and items made from endemic wood harvested in Thailand.  While I have absolutely no idea about the current state of lumber mills and "custom milling" in Thailand, have you looked into this possibility?  Again, in my experience, next to having a good stable job with the government, being a successful entrepreneur would also be something highly valued by your family.  We have a number of very good manufacturers of lumber mills as sponsors on this forum, and you would certainly have a lot of support and information to help you if you wanted to go in this direction.  Further, (while your current work hours would not support this), you could look to ease yourself into full time self employment by still working a regular job part time, to help assure both you and your family of your financial success.  In this situation, rather than investing in your further education, you would take that money and invest in the mill and heavy equipment necessary to get your business running.

I hope some of this may help.  Good luck.

Dave

[Ron Wenrich]

Dave gives good advice.  Along the sawmill angle, we had a member named Jim King that ran a sawmill in Peru.  He was originally from Wisconsin, and moved on to the tropics early in his career.  I believe he started in Africa.  Unfortunately, Jim died last year.  Otherwise, he would have been a very good resource.  You can look up his posts and see what he was doing in the tropics.  He supported quite a few families and I believe he was a well respected man about town.  His posts had a lot of products that he made. 

I went the route of getting a degree in forestry.  When Earth Day came about in 1970, I thought it would be a real boom for us in the resource field.  It didn't turn out so well.  But, I worked markets in the US and found old beliefs were hard to overcome.  I ended up working sawmills for 35 years in many different capacities.  I did get to do some forestry work, but the bulk of my experience revolved around the mills.  I think the Resource Conservation angle is a good one.  Couple that with your IT experience, you're proficiency of English and you could be in high demand, especially with engineering companies.  It seems that the engineers took over some of the resource end when the forestry profession didn't step up. 

I have no way of knowing anything about the Wisconsin programs.  One school is probably just as good as another.  But, I really question how well you would like those cold winters.  I know you spent time in New Jersey.  Those winters are mild in comparison.  Schools in the northeast and upper midwest have a tendency to teach mainly about hardwoods.  Its what is mainly in the area.  Schools on the west coast and the south revolve around softwoods, which is the predominant industry.  Tropics have their own types of forest types and different types of management.

One thing you could do is to either do a stint as a volunteer or a short apprenticeship in some sort of forestry work. Maybe a stint at a sawmill.  Find out if you like it before you invest time in an education that you wouldn't use.  If you find out that its your dream job, then great. 

[husky fan 500]

danny i give u much respect youre thinking about a bigger move than i ever thought of. i do agree with the other posts  you gotta do whats right for you. my gramps used to tell me  the harder you work for something the more youll appreciate it.  wisc.  will most certainly be cooler weather than thailand  look around maybe a different part of the u s is more financially appealing   good luck to u  i will keep up with your posts to see how youre doing

[DannyK]

If you have to borrow $30,000 per year every year to get a forestry degree I would advise to NOT do it.  You will start your career in such a deep financial hole that you will likely never get out of it. 

Thank you for your advice, SliverPicker
I don't have to borrow or loan. I have enough cash to finish undergrad debt free (also grad if I want to) without working while in college at all. This will be a bit of advantage that I can put most of my time to better myself and get involved in related activities, events and volunteering.

Dave

Thank you for your advice, Dave. You understand my culture and describe it perfectly. I'm leaning towards forestry conservation (as you can see the program I'm looking at is Forest Ecosystem Restoration and Management). I want to be a conservation forester even I'm not sure what they do, where they work and who hires them. But I have to keep my mind open to other careers in forestry too to increase the chance of getting job. At this moment, I'm not really into milling. My mind might change when I know more. I'm still open to everything.
I want to explain something and please don't take it the wrong way. I'm not denying your advice or anything. I really appreciate that you sacrificed your time to write those good advice. Many Thai people (especially Chinese-Thai people like my family) don't respect "working for Thai government" much. Many people see government workers as low-level workers because of the low income and work ethic. Many think that those people are lazy. Not everyone thinks like this but it seems to be the general idea Thai people have towards working for Thai government. However, low income is not the worst thing in my opinion, corruption is. I'm not saying everyone is corrupt but sadly the majority is. If you want to go far, you have to be one of "them". I can tell you that I won't go far. People pay bribe to do illegal activities including forest cutting and sometimes people have to pay bribe for legal activities too for "convenience". Bribery is everywhere. How do I know? Well, my family is part of the system (even if it's just a small part of local government procurement). This is also one of the reasons why I don't want to work here.

I think the Resource Conservation angle is a good one.  Couple that with your IT experience, you're proficiency of English and you could be in high demand, especially with engineering companies.  It seems that the engineers took over some of the resource end when the forestry profession didn't step up. 

Thank you for your advice, Ron. I'll definitely look into Jim King's posts.
Can you elaborate on engineering companies a little more? What kind of jobs? What position? You can just give me the names or key words. I don't want to bother you too much.
If I'm interested in resource conservation, do you think it's ok to get an education in the midwest? or it doesn't really matter? I'm not sure where the jobs are (geographically).
As for weather in the Midwest, I'll cope with cold winters just fine (I strongly believe that). I didn't have any problem with winter in NJ at all. I bought one down jacket when I was there but I never wore it because I never had too. I always wore just a T-shirt and hoodie. I'm not saying I can wear those clothes and stay out for hours but with proper clothes, I think I can handle colder place.

look around maybe a different part of the u s is more financially appealing   

Thank you, husky fan 500. Do you have any suggestion? I've looked into schools in ME and NH too but I seem to like UWSP better. I know that UW-Madison is more famous but I want to live in a small town if I can choose. UWSP is good enough for me (money-wise). My only concern about UWSP is that I don't know if it's really well-recognized in Forestry. Or it doesn't matter what school I go to as long as I do well in school (good GPA, lots of activities that I can get involved as a student, internship, etc).

[BenGill]

Danny,
I am very sorry to hear that you feel that you are lacking a purpose in life. I think that that is a question/problem that many people struggle with but I think that it is a virtuous thing to seek purpose so good for you. I think that a good way to find that is by doing what makes you feel fulfilled (within reason of course). Striving to help people is always a good thing and I think that being and working in nature is also fulfilling in many ways as well. I do not know if you are religious at all but in my experience that has brought me peace in my life but I'm not going to go and try to evangelize you on a forum or anything just offering an option. I think that many people feel that they have to get away from where they are to "find themselves" but I think you really just have to become the man that you dream of being. Whether that means going to Wisconsin, starting your own mill or deciding to living for others. I can't really offer you advice on whether to move or not because I don't know you and I don't know your situation very well. All I can tell you(what I would do) is in-vision who you want to be in the future and ask yourself "what would that guy do?". Fight the good fight and I wish you all the best.

Benjamin 

[SLawyer Dave]

I'm still open to everything.
I want to explain something and please don't take it the wrong way. I'm not denying your advice or anything. I really appreciate that you sacrificed your time to write those good advice. Many Thai people (especially Chinese-Thai people like my family) don't respect "working for Thai government" much. Many people see government workers as low-level workers because of the low income and work ethic. Many think that those people are lazy. Not everyone thinks like this but it seems to be the general idea Thai people have towards working for Thai government. However, low income is not the worst thing in my opinion, corruption is. I'm not saying everyone is corrupt but sadly the majority is. If you want to go far, you have to be one of "them". I can tell you that I won't go far. People pay bribe to do illegal activities including forest cutting and sometimes people have to pay bribe for legal activities too for "convenience". Bribery is everywhere. How do I know? Well, my family is part of the system (even if it's just a small part of local government procurement). This is also one of the reasons why I don't want to work here.

No worries.   ;D  Like I said, I am extrapolating from my knowledge and experience, and trying to apply it to a country and culture I have never visited.....so there are sure to be some differences.  Here in California, the Hmong and Laotian families/ cultures I have dealt with first revere education.  After that it is a close tie for second between the stability and prestige of working for the government and achieving financial success through business ownership. 

I hope you find the career and happiness you are looking for.

Dave

[Ron Wenrich]

Danny

Your description of Thai people and their opinion of government workers can be the same in the States.  Although, they have overcome the low income hurdle in this country.

I can't give you specific engineering firms that hire.  But, the larger ones do have environmental scientists on board.  I would say the same thing could be said for gas and oil companies and the like.  Anyone that does any type of altering the landscape will find that they need someone to do studies prior and during the operations.  When I was in school, resource conservation was not even offered.  Forestry was the closest thing at the time, and soon after graduation they started majors in environmental science.  Engineering firms and government snatched them up and left us foresters out in the woods. 

I did do a simple search on Yahoo, and I came up with this site:  http://www.ecojobs.com/  They list a bunch of jobs in various different fields and countries.  Another site is:  http://www.conservationjobboard.com/index.php   You can go from the type of jobs out there and match the needed education to what would interest you.  I think the resource conservation education would be a good choice.  Where you get the education wouldn't matter as much, since a lot of the information is transferable. 

One of the big marketplace items in years to come is going to be focused on water.  As populations expand, there is going to be a need for conservation and improvement in supply and quality.  Its needed right now in many places.  Couple resource conservation with your IT background and you won't have a problem getting a job, in my opinion. 

[ashes]

Couple resource conservation with your IT background and you won't have a problem getting a job, in my opinion.

Every one of my friends that has IT work experience, and is also good with GIS has had zero problems getting employment in Natural resource/Forestry. Or other similar fields.

I agree with the other posters, find what you WANT to do, and you'll be well on your way.

[DannyK]

Thank you, Benjamin, Dave, Ron and ashes. I really appreciate your advice and insight.
At this moment, I strongly believe that this is what I want to do. I'm not sure what's in store for me but I'll do my best, within reason, to make this happen. And I'll have a back up plan in place in case I can't find a job after graduation. I might need some more advice again some time soon.
Thank you for your help. If you have further advice/suggestion or anything, please feel free to post it.