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What do you want out of a mill?

Started by Wufnu, October 14, 2013, 02:18:58 PM

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Dave Shepard

There was a company that experimented with edger blades on a bandmill, I think the name was Western Sawyer. The problem was that you had less than an 1/8" margin of error to align the edger blades. Also you would have to have a way adjust for taper horizontally, in addition to vertically.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

Wufnu

Howdy, folks!

John, that's a good idea!  I went through your posts but didn't see any build pictures.  Do you have a website or do you mind sharing pictures of your build thus far?  I'd love to see what you've done. 

For those of you asking my business plan, I'm afraid that's a bit of cart leading the horse.  That isn't to say that I haven't written down some ideas but what a punch to the kisser it'd be to have a business all planned out with no product to sell.  That is, I might not be able to make a quality product.  I might not be able to compete with others on pricing.  There's a list of things that could derail any preliminary plans I've made thus far and they'll have to be evaluated on a case by case basis as I progress.  I will be able to prototype in inventor to save some time but I'm estimating at least 3 years before I have a product. 

Even with a good design, a business is a complicated thing.  The only real advantage I have is that I speak Chinese (I'm not Chinese), and I have two Chinese brothers in law.  One of them owns a mine and the other owns a few manufacturing businesses and has, literally, thousands of business contacts.  I.e. I'm fairly certain I can get quality steel, possibly made to SAE AMS specifications, at a price that the others simply cannot.  On the other hand, I don't even know if the other companies are using certified metals.  I doubt it.  Certified = more $$$.  Construction will be done to me, per SAE/AMS/MIL spec (just because I know them, already). 

Immediate thoughts are to keep it small scale and market it purely towards hobbyists and those looking to build their own homes/buildings/etc.  I'm thinking 28" diameter max, 8' sled sections.  My mills will be primarily aimed towards making boards with potential to add attachments/modifications for slab or swing blade mills.  Another focus will be on ease of use and portability.  I could focus more or expand into other areas of the industry.  I'll wait until I really know what I'm doing, and understand the market better, before I really nail down my scope, make my production design, and start selling things. 

It will certainly be a part time venture, to start, if I even get that far.  That's the entire reason I ended up here.  We're a single income family (wife is Chinese; her degrees and work experience are teaching English.  She's teaching Chinese at the local college to the tune of $200 a month...) and we're getting by but I don't want to get by.  I want to get ahead.  I started late, so to speak, and I've got some catching up to do.  I've been searching for a second job for 3-4 months and I just can't find one.  I've discovered that businesses don't hire engineers part time and even if they did they close shop when I'm getting off work.  I branched out.  I'm talking retail, fast food, call center, whatever and I'd take it.  Nothing.  That dog won't hunt; I need more work.  This lead me to deciding to learn a skill so that I can do something on the side.  I decided to learn to weld.  It's a) a great skill to have and, b) potential to earn a little side income. 

Following that, I also need to build some structures: garage, shed, etc.  I saw the price of wood, and I've built enough garages/decks/rooms/sheds (lots) to know that the Lowes/Home Depot/etc sells crap lumber (I don't know if they sell the good stuff to contractors or what), so I thought I could mill my own.  I'm fairly poor, after all.  About 5 weeks ago, I went looking for a mill rental and found there are none.  Too dangerous, I guess.  Me, being the kind of guy I am, figured I could build one and went looking online.  If I could build one, I can likely recoup my costs in lumber and possibly even mill on the side.  Then I went looking to see how much they were being sold for, out of curiosity. 

What I found were companies with, assumed, 10-100 (or a lot more!) employees (a variety of companies out there).  They almost all likely have an in-house machine shop.  Full time employees and the costs that brings.  Large buildings.  Lots of tools.  Lots of other costs.  These things all equal to very large overhead AND they still have to make a good profit.  I have none of those issues.  I think I can build equal or better for much less.  I don't have to sell a thousand units a year to meet costs, like they do.  I can sell one.  Or none.  I've got a good job, I'm doing all right ;)  Perhaps, some day, I will have those issues too.  Then I would be just another brand among a sea of brands.  Lets face it, these companies have been selling mills for a long times.  Many of them, for decades.  If they could sell cheaper, at a larger volume, they probably would.  Either the demand isn't high enough or they can't make them fast enough but the point is that they are good at what they do.  Probably very, very good.  I have no delusions of going head to head with them. 

For me, I'm starting because I want a mill.  There is my first goal.  Even if I can't make money, it's something I enjoy.  Designing and building things, that is.  It's also something I'd like to have.  Even if there is never any business, I want a good mill.  I'd like to build a home, actually.  Quite frankly, besides the $45,000 in student loans, I find having debt to be a real burden on my mind.  I can never feel secure.  I don't like it.  So, step one, get a mill.  What happens after that, time will tell.  I'm pretty good at fabrication but this is my first swim in metalwork.  I have a lot of skills to gain before I can get into this seriously.  I have 3 about years to learn what I need to learn.  No better time to start than now, I figure. 

That's much longer than I wanted it to be.  I hope it answered your questions about my motivation and ideas.  I hope that by writing that book (hah) I've earned the right to listen to what you appreciate in a mill ;) 


Custom, that's a concern I share.  I've run into that, before, also.  Economies of scale! 


Seaman, I really like the Lucas design.  The reason I like it so much is that 1) it's simple, 2) it's adaptable, and 3) it's very fast.  The only concerns I have are about leveling the log or how you handle tapers.  I'd be even more interested if they had pricing available.  In my industry, "call for a quote" usually means "a lot".  By watching their videos, and more on Youtube, I've pretty much worked out how the things work.  The only curiosity I still have is what kind of U-join they're using on those swing blades and how the positioning controls work.  I'll look for more examples, later. 


Nk14zp, that is a monster mill.  It's not often you get someone with knowledge of hydraulics, metalwork, large scale milling, and MCU programming.  That's a pretty massive undertaking.  Built by a single guy?  Family?  Business?  I watched the entire video.  Fascinating from beginning to end!


Dave, that's the immediate concern I had with an edger attachment(s).  I'm not sure how much of an issue the taper would be; quickest fix for that would be to start with a squared cant  :D

Ljohnsaw

Wufnu,

No, I don't have a build thread yet.  I'm waiting until I have enough to post - there are so many awesome threads on mills that others have built that mine is a bit amateurish by comparison (IMO).  I want to get it up and running to prove it to myself first.  I keep thinking any day now (since I'm retired and have all the time in the world), but somehow it takes much longer than anticipated!  :D

At this point, I have $2,250 into it and very little to spend if my motor is powerful enough and doesn't need to be replaced.

You mention 8' bed sections.  With the head taking up two to three feet, the first section doesn't get you too far!  I'd say the base track should be 16' with the ability to slide a set of wheels under and slide in a tow tongue to make it mobile.
John Sawicky

Just North-East of Sacramento...

SkyTrak 9038, Ford 545D FEL, Davis Little Monster backhoe, Case 16+4 Trencher, Home Built 42" capacity/36" cut Bandmill up to 54' long - using it all to build a timber frame cabin.

giant splinter

Chevy Impala sedan curb weight 3900# +/-  loaded $40,000

Wood-Mizer LT40HD curb weight 3900# +/- loaded $26,000

Why try to build one? and could you save money by building either one?

Sound like a couple dumb questions ? .......... Think about it. :D
roll with it

Seaman

WUFNU, next time you are in NC stop by!
Lucas dedicated slabber
Woodmizer LT40HD
John Deere 5310 W/ FEL
Semper Fi

Wufnu

John, I know what you mean.  I've done that with almost everything I've built in the past, haha.  Eventually, though, I figured out that my failures are just as educational as my successes so I started posting them from beginning to end.  Every screw up just made it more entertaining for the readers ;)  Good point about the bed!  I should have pointed out that the stock bed would be 16'.  I want to be able to lift the end and put an axle under it so that it's mobile, as you pointed out. 

Splinter, best way to make a fortune building (restoring) old cars is to start with a large fortune!  They're somehow both simple but complex.  Simple in theory, complex in execution.  If you mean a modern one, up the complexity by a lot and you can forget the "simple in theory" part, haha.  Plus, they're hard to make.  Just one mold to make the plastic buttons for the A/C cost more than 3 Impalas  :D  As far as I know, most of the things required to make a band saw mill of any complexity are commercially available.  Since you're going by weight, I guess that price would make sense if you had to buy and then melt down an old (restored) Impala to make the steel for your LT40.  For $26,000, I'd rather buy one of those new Camaros  ;D  By the way, have you seen the new Corvette?  It's so sexy...

Seaman, I'd love to!  I don't expect to be out that way, though.  Next time you're near Lagrange, GA, gimme a holler!  Same goes for the rest of you. 

JP

WoodenHead

Wufnu,

One of the best ways to know how to build a better machine is to know how to operate one.  I would suggest (if this is possible) to saw on a number of different sawmills.  Perhaps there folks on the forum who can offer some of their time.

I like Woodmizer mills (particularly the LT28 and up).  Everything has been thought out well (over time of course).  However, I think one area where Woodmizer can improve is to make the mill modular enough to be able to upgrade from a manual mill to a hydraulic and from a standard hydraulic to a super (all engine options) with no difficulty.  That would be challenging, but I think their business model is presently the biggest obstacle.   ;)  Norwood is already working towards that direction.

+1 to what Customsawyer said. 

rmack

Quote from: nk14zp on October 15, 2013, 08:34:41 AM
This is my dream saw mill and it's homemade.(And no it's not mine.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uz-XBqyfbsk

Uploaded on Oct 17, 2011
Portable, circular sawmill with 48" headsaw, 26" topsaw and 14" vertcal edgers. 100% self contained with 230hp JD power unit; live deck in and out; hyd folding wings; 3 hyd leveling legs (always remains on flat plane); self digging wheels (hydraulically digs itself into the ground for comfortable working height). Quick set-up time (under 30 minutes). Unit weight 24,000 lbs.

Wow! that thing is cutting some lumber. It would definitely be some serious money, but that's a whole 'nother league compared to bandmills. :)
the foundation for a successful life is being able to recognize what to least expect the most... (anonymous)

Welder Bob
2012 LT40HDSD35 Yanmar Diesel Triple
1972 Patrick AR-5
Massey Ferguson GC2410TLB Diesel Triple
Belsaw Boat Anchor

dboyt

Modular mill with hydraulic options, movable clamps and stops, easily added crossbunks, track extensions, can be set up to cut from either the clean side or the bark side, solid frame and carriage, developed by someone wanting a good, low cost mill to build his home.  Norwood.
Norwood MX34 Pro portable sawmill, 8N Ford, Lewis Winch

Wufnu

WH, yah, they've got all of their facilities geared towards a current product.  Increasing modularity of their mills would mean a complete redesign of their fabrication process.  I agree, that's what I'd like to do.  I don't know of any mill owners in the area, however.  I'm sure there are some out there, I just haven't found them yet.  That's why I asked if anyone had digital versions of their mill's manual that they could send me.  I could mentally go through the motions.  It still leaves a lot to be desired, in terms of knowing how they're run, but it's a start.  It'd also let me figure out how their features work. 

DBoyt, you're the second person to mention Norwood.  I like their features.  Seems like a great mill.  I like their philosophy.  I wouldn't call them particularly affordable, though.  Affordable is always a very relative term.  Compared to other mills?  Yah, probably.  They've definitely got a nice markup.  E.g. "Want us to add an axle, 2 tires, 8 footings, and trailer lights to the bed of your five grand LM29?  $2000.  How about two rolling beams and a manual winch to load/roll your logs?  Thousand bucks." Reminds me of Porsche; their lower tier vehicles are very affordable (compared to, say, a Carrera)... until you see what you don't get and how much those options costs.  Then again, that all makes sense as a business.  Norwood's been in the game a long time.  It's now a larger company and they have a lot of overhead.  I think their prices are very fair, based on what they probably have to pay.  Definitely a lot to be learned here!  I've already ordered a catalog/dvd from them.

Thanks to everyone for your input so far and for introducing me to some brands I hadn't found yet.  I have so much to learn. 

SawyerBrown

Quote from: rmack on October 16, 2013, 08:54:06 AM
Quote from: nk14zp on October 15, 2013, 08:34:41 AM
This is my dream saw mill and it's homemade.(And no it's not mine.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uz-XBqyfbsk

Uploaded on Oct 17, 2011
Portable, circular sawmill with 48" headsaw, 26" topsaw and 14" vertcal edgers. 100% self contained with 230hp JD power unit; live deck in and out; hyd folding wings; 3 hyd leveling legs (always remains on flat plane); self digging wheels (hydraulically digs itself into the ground for comfortable working height). Quick set-up time (under 30 minutes). Unit weight 24,000 lbs.

Wow! that thing is cutting some lumber. It would definitely be some serious money, but that's a whole 'nother league compared to bandmills. :)

Wow, that's one sawin' machine! 

How's it do on nails? 

Wufnu, another thing to consider is your target customers?  Gotta deal with non-wood products hidden until you find them?  May drive you to one sawing decision vs another.
Pete Brown, Saw It There LLC.  Wood-mizer LT35HDG25, Farmall 'M', 16' trailer.  Custom sawing only (at this time).  Long-time woodworker ... short-time sawyer!

longtime lurker

The europeans have been putting single and/or twin edgers on bandmills for a long time. But we're talking serious bandmills there... wide bands, complex controls, big log capacities, high throughput... and prices to match.
Wimmer has a pretty effictive system, so does pelous, couple of the italian manufactures, plus whatever is coming out the old eastern bloc.


http://www.mebor.eu/main.php?ids=160&t=0&lang=3

bottom vid shows an edger in operation on a "small" 4 inch band. I wants oneeeeee :D
The quickest way to make a million dollars with a sawmill is to start with two million.

leroy in kansas

Wufnu,

If you want a "REAL" challange, forget about the band, forget about circle blades and come up with something that doesn't require these things.

A few years ago no one immiganed an improvement on the gas torch for cutting metal. Look what we use now. Plasma, Water, and various other methods.

If you can come up with a truly revolutional idea, you will be the MAN

Wufnu

Sawyer, on that mill I'm willing to bet the nails just sharpen the blade  :D  I think the best way to save your blades is the same method used in many other tasks: prevention.  I'd wager it's faster, easier, and cheaper to scan a tree with a metal detector before cutting it down than it is to replace/install blades.  Good chance any metal will be at or below arms reach on the tree.  Then again, you don't design a product for yourself but rather for your customer.  I'll think on it.

Lurker, that's a great idea.  I've already worked out a way I can add an edger to the system for about $100-$150 in extra materials, excluding consumables (blades, etc).  Completely adjustable, but manually adjusted.  Automatic adjustment will add big $$.  I really need to get a notebook to jot these ideas down. 

Leroy, I'd love to come up with something new.  It seems unlikely, as this is a pretty mature technology that's been around for hundreds of years (blades, not portable band saw mills).  As you said, I think it would have to be a completely new method.  Revolutionary.  That seems very unlikely but that certainly won't stop me from trying.  Never has before, anyway.  Only thing I can think of at the moment involves very high heats: laser, or a tungsten wire at about 5000 F.  Both will ignite the wood, obviously, haha.  Woods are composites which makes things tricky.  Could use water... but it would be so slow that a regular saw would be better.  I dunno, man... saws are pretty simple tech, effective, inexpensive, and fast.  I'll keep thinking on it.

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