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timber harvest

Started by schambers, April 23, 2014, 10:59:52 PM

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mesquite buckeye

Quote from: GlennCz on April 28, 2014, 07:32:41 AM
Quote from: jwilly3879 on April 28, 2014, 07:06:38 AM
Second what Ron said, a larger tree will build volume faster than the smaller ones, increasing the asset at a better rate. Just like investing in a higher rate CD if you can find one.

This is true.  But the opposite concept is that many of the big ones are slowly dying inside and you don't always know it.  One of my big fat logs on the landing had red rot inside.  The center has a hollow spot, that decreases the value quite a bit.  The other big thing is the shake, it's where the base starts to split, so when they go to mill it it breaks apart.   For cherry you are hoping for veneer and getting multiple dollars per foot.  A 150 ft log could be worth $4/foot and mill pays $600 for it.  We even had some $6/ft logs.  SADLY!!!  Our best veneer buyers aren't around anymore.

On my first cut, i tried to leave many of the seemingly big healthy trees, because my property had never been logged since clear cut a century or so ago.  It's a judgement call, you certainly don't want someone taking all the good trees just cause they are worth it for them to cut down, when the tree could be growing a couple percent a year and hopefully timber prices are rising.  But of course if we have another bad recession, timber prices will plummet down.

That is the tough call. I have a lot of trees that are getting to be really nice heading into mid to high 20" DBH range. Lot of them are northern red oaks. My warning for wetwood is a little dark brown-black seepage at the junction of the double trunks or near the base of the stump on singles. That is my warning to cut them before the degrade gets too bad. The ones I have removed with this sign are stinky, but the shake was generally in the early stages still. They were more prone to collapse, checking and splitting than ordinary, but otherwise the lumber was ok. Anything starting to seep I will try to cut within 5 years. I don't need any clear side lumber hollow trees growing in my woods. That is the ultimate result if you wait too long. They start rotting faster than they are growing. Better to let new ones start after these go bye bye.  :-\
Manage 80 acre tree farm in central Missouri and Mesquite timber and about a gozillion saguaros in Arizona.

chester_tree _farmah

Yup and species can be weighed too. Red Oak tends to stay healthier and well formed to a larger size than some othersspecies. Soft Maple not so much. Poplar/Aspen go bad much sooner and sometimes look fine on the outside but will have started to rot in ther middle.
254xp
C4B Can-Car Tree Farmer
Ford 1720 4wd loader hoe

jwilly3879

We work mostly with EWP and we are leaving trees that are 16" dbh and clearing some of the smaller ugly trees around the nice ones. Trees with weevil damage are going as are the big ones. The mill really likes the nice smooth bark logs down to 8" but will also take the big (30"+) less desirable ones, just don't send a whole load of scrubbers. The leave trees should respond well with the lack of competition.

They are being marked by a forester hired as an independent by the LO and we are marketing the logs.  The landowner is happy with the work and stumpage he is receiving, it is much better than his last harvest on another section.

Ron Wenrich

All I'm saying is that it's on an individual tree basis.  I've seen the cookbook forestry where they tell you to use a certain diameter limit because that is where the economics are at.  But, that is always an average.  If a tree is showing outward signs of decline, then you take it.  If it is healthy, then you consider leaving it as a crop tree. 

A lot depends on your cutting cycles.  If you believe in diameter limit cutting, then you'll be harvesting every 30-40 years in our area.  If you believe in cyclical thinnings, you can cut that time in half or better. 
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

SwampDonkey

Some loggers are actual foresters. But the flip side is that many landowners, up here at least, think their loggers are all foresters. You will rarely see a landowner in this area call a forester for advice. They will talk up a storm with a logger though. The thing is, NB marketing boards provide price and mill specs to woodlot owners, so now they are expert woodland managers. ;)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

chester_tree _farmah

Also if it is a thinning and the LO enjoys wildlife you should leave a few of those diseased trees here and there. They aren't worth much if they have heart rot anyway.

Latest studies show wolf trees are actually very attractive to wildlife.
254xp
C4B Can-Car Tree Farmer
Ford 1720 4wd loader hoe

jwilly3879

The EWP job we are cutting doesn't really fall into any category, it's definitely not a diameter limit cut, not really a TSI or a shelterwood either. It is more a combination of all of them, the worst are going first and then then the canopy is being opened up with the best trees left. Fortunately there are enough marketable trees being harvested that a little money can be made. It's definitely not make the most $$ right now. Future harvests are planned for a 15-20 year cycle. Hope I'm around to see the next one.

chester_tree _farmah

Sounds like crop tree management? Sorry what is ewp?
254xp
C4B Can-Car Tree Farmer
Ford 1720 4wd loader hoe

thecfarm

ewp,Eastern White Pine. Right in our woods.  ;D
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

chester_tree _farmah

Doh! U think I would have remembered that. Getting old can suck.
254xp
C4B Can-Car Tree Farmer
Ford 1720 4wd loader hoe

thecfarm

I never really heard of it until I got on here. All I ever hear is pine in this area and to the people I talk too.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

chester_tree _farmah

True. It is the pine in Maine.
254xp
C4B Can-Car Tree Farmer
Ford 1720 4wd loader hoe

schambers

22 inches in diameter Chester...
Any one know the price per board ft for red maple or red oak?
Haven't had a chance to respond to posts recently but still reading them when I can.

thecfarm

chester,I should've put a plug in to the FF dictionary for the EWP. Go to the menu bar,starts out with Home,Help,Search,point your mouse to Extras,a drop down will appear, and the Forestry Forum Dictionary is there. Lots of other stuff in Extras too.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

chester_tree _farmah

Quote from: thecfarm on April 30, 2014, 10:18:34 AM
chester,I should've put a plug in to the FF dictionary for the EWP. Go to the menu bar,starts out with Home,Help,Search,point your mouse to Extras,a drop down will appear, and the Forestry Forum Dictionary is there. Lots of other stuff in Extras too.

Ahh very cool! Thanks cfarm!
254xp
C4B Can-Car Tree Farmer
Ford 1720 4wd loader hoe

Remle

schambers
Every state has some one that tabulates the information you are looking for, in PA it seems the Timber Market Report - Pen State Extension has the 2013 fall report out. You might want to check it out for your area.

Ron Wenrich

Timber Market Report of PA - 4th Quarter 2013  http://extension.psu.edu/natural-resources/forests/timber-market-report/reports/2013/2013-4th-quarter

These give ranges, and I'm not sure of the accuracy given how they sample.  Mill price numbers aren't very good as they only have a few in the sample.  But, it gives you an idea for your area.  Just remember that the extension uses International as a log scale.  Most loggers use Doyle, as that is how they most often sell logs.  It may vary out in your section of the state. 

Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

GlennCz

Quote from: schambers on April 29, 2014, 09:05:15 PM
22 inches in diameter Chester...
Any one know the price per board ft for red maple or red oak?
Haven't had a chance to respond to posts recently but still reading them when I can.

It's going to be very hard if not impossible for you to grade/price a tree yourself.  Is the middle rotted? You won't know until you cut it down.  It is perfectly straight w/o knots sticking out?  The butt log is the valuable one and will give you more than the other 2 or maybe 3 up the tree put together.  I would find the closest mill and get their price sheet, but that won't really help you in valuing your own timber, because you just can't do it.  (but you should still try!)

SwampDonkey

I know hardwood timber grows nicer down that way than way up here. Oh, we get a few nice ones, the average is not that great because of our climate and continual high grading for generations. Working with woodlot owner groups for 20 years reveals how few these gem logs there are, just a trickle of volume. Harvesting them just further high grades the forest. But I here of folks down there buying on spec on the stump all the time and with trees marked. Up here that kind of faith in the unknown (inside the tree) would either bankrupt a mill or seriously devalue our timber below the low value the industry up here have already created. Because the timber buyers would end up low balling it for a cushion in getting grade lumber. These days it's hardly worth cutting logs of any species unless we use the wood ourselves. Now the Irvings pretty much own all the forest they lease from the government, so it will only get worst. They now have a binding 25 year contract with the government. That is stirring up a big hornet's nest up here. Nothing will come of all the talk until there is enough people with no other choice but to march on the legislature. It has happened in the past. Just my daily ramble. ;)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Ron Wenrich

I know of many mills and loggers that are successful buying timber on the open bid.  When I was buying timber, we had to know our quality judgements, know how much we could pay for timber given our markets, and have a feel for what our competition would be willing to pay.  Sometimes you made out, sometimes you didn't. 

When I was selling timber, I often was amazed at how guys were bidding.  You could always tell someone who needed timber by the size of their bid.  I also remember a logger bidding on a sale.  They had been in business for several years, but never bid on timber.  They were the low bidder on the sale.  Their response was they never bid so high on timber, only to lose it.  It gave them a good education, and they started to get better as time went along. 

I also found that the guys with better equipment bid better on the timber.  They also did good jobs in the woods.  I always thought that was because they had better markets that they searched out, and were generally more productive.  Their operational costs were lower, and that allowed them to pay more for timber. 
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

GlennCz

Quote from: GlennCz on April 30, 2014, 08:28:50 PM
Quote from: schambers on April 29, 2014, 09:05:15 PM
22 inches in diameter Chester...
Any one know the price per board ft for red maple or red oak?
Haven't had a chance to respond to posts recently but still reading them when I can.

It's going to be very hard if not impossible for you to grade/price a tree yourself.  Is the middle rotted? You won't know until you cut it down.  It is perfectly straight w/o knots sticking out?  The butt log is the valuable one and will give you more than the other 2 or maybe 3 up the tree put together.  I would find the closest mill and get their price sheet, but that won't really help you in valuing your own timber, because you just can't do it.  (but you should still try!)

Please note,  I am only speaking of an amateur landowner like myself, not an experienced professional.

SwampDonkey

Our system up here favors the industrial players. They don't need wood off woodlots at all, they are not desperate to buy high to fill their needs. In fact the way price on crown works is based on a biased sample driven by what mills want to pay for wood to woodlot owners to begin with. The government does not sell wood by bids. They sell by volume and the money for product is based on this biased survey. The only fellows up here that bid it up are those loggers who are desperate for wood. Or are in better than average timber. Everyone knows the markets, we have marketing boards and that information is free for the taking. When they bid it up, their price at the mill gates does not rise, they need the cash flow. Some may have a mill contract through a broker, but that price is already set and the broker gets his cut to. Foresters, in a consulting role, is about non-existent. Forester as logger is common place.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

schambers

Thanks again everyone for all this info. Been looking over the timber market report and just glad i decided to wait instead of letting the first logger take all my good trees. Im convinced that my wood lot has good potential and with the help of the right forester and some luck I will be able to grow some nice timber for future cuts. Talking with all of you and listening to your feedback has helped me to realize the direction I need to go. I have talked to a neighbor who was very happy with a forester he used about 5 years ago and I am waiting for some contact info from him. I have also been watching the progress/destruction of neighboring wood lots that said yes to the logger I turned down. It is a shame to see, but a blessing to me at the same time. Though they will never have another timber cut on thier lands for generations to come they are creating some high quality deer bedding areas on two sides of my land which will have plenty of acorns for those deer to eat. I will keep you posted on the results.   

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