Belsaw build

[moodnacreek]

Laup, ok, thanks again. The flow control that I have used on other projects is the excess return flow to tank [open center].  There must be a dozen ways to power a shaft, forward/reverse , variable speed, stop/start etc. not to mention closed center or hydrostatic, all to much for me.

[luap]

Thanks for clarifying the difference between indicator runout and actual runout and the difference between axial and radial runout.  I am trying to get my head around the hydraulics.  So the flow valve is placed in the gig back line and only limits the maximum flow in that line?
Here is what I plan to work with.

 

 
The pump and motor came out of a scissors lift.  The pump (cant find model number) was direct powered by a 4 cylinder gas engine and the motor is 15 gpm and 353rpm.  The valve came out of a forklift so I assume it will not work because it is not a motor spool.  (Besides it has too many fittings!)

The motor looks heavy duty. Any motor that has same size fittings can also be used as a pump. Your valve has the power beyond port tapped into and would need the right sleeve put back in to use that as a single valve. A valve doesn't care what it sends the oil to but it matters when it is in neutral. That is a pretty good size single stage pump. You will not have the problem of not enough flow.
I tried to clarify my flow control arrangement in response to moondacreek. My flow control restricts flow in complete circuit. not just the return side. There are flow dividers that will do that but more to buy.

[luap]

Luap, so if I my motor is 15gpm I should get a 15gpm open center motor spool valve and a 15gpm adjustable flow valve?  

It basically comes down to choosing the motor with the most torque at your chosen gpm. You best indication of this is slowest rpm at rated flow. And your chosen 15gpm open center valve and 15 gpm flow valve would be good. In the case of driving a carriage you could undersize the spool valve because you would never be  using max. flow. I am only a seat of the pants backyard builder who knows less today than I did yesterday.

[Don P]

Looking at the pic, is your stick in the way of loading the carriage? Mine is behind the leg, just in front of the blade.
My splitter is just a vertical knife on 2 threaded rods so it can be adjusted with nuts in and out and tipped to align with the cut, but I think the rolling disc type probably work better.

[glendaler]

Very perceptive donp, it is in the way but the handle is removeable. I don't often see these belsaws with the short 18ft bed and 6ft carriage like I'm building and I'm finding out that things are cramped. Now that I'm used to seeing mine I realize most of the ones you see online are people that have very long beds and carriages sawing short wood so everything looks very roomy. I think it's going to efficient to have everything almost within arms reach. Things are getting exciting now that I've had the blade spinning.

How many turns of cable should there be on the feed drum? It's 1/4" cable and I have 5 wraps on now.

Is there a torque for the arbor nut? I put a pipe wrench on it and wacked it with a hammer.

How thick should the splitter be in relation to blade thickness? The higher the splitter the better?

[moodnacreek]

Very perceptive donp, it is in the way but the handle is removeable. I don't often see these belsaws with the short 18ft bed and 6ft carriage like I'm building and I'm finding out that things are cramped. Now that I'm used to seeing mine I realize most of the ones you see online are people that have very long beds and carriages sawing short wood so everything looks very roomy. I think it's going to efficient to have everything almost within arms reach. Things are getting exciting now that I've had the blade spinning.

How many turns of cable should there be on the feed drum? It's 1/4" cable and I have 5 wraps on now.

Is there a torque for the arbor nut? I put a pipe wrench on it and wacked it with a hammer.

How thick should the splitter be in relation to blade thickness? The higher the splitter the better?
5 wraps or 4. If not enough it will slip on a big log. With a wrench length 1/2 the dia. of saw blade, arm strength only, no hammer. [actually self tightening] Splitter: straight edged to log side of blade + a hair more so cant doesn't hit it.

[Trapper John]

Thanks again Luap, you explain things clearly and quite helpful.  So that valve could work if I make it open center with a sleeve?  Or should I just order a $150 motor spool valve from Surplus Center?
Glendaler, the Belsaw manual says 3 turns but I don't think it makes much difference.  I have 5 or so wraps and the extra has come in handy when I am playing with carriage hookup.  
Here is my scale, I did not like the sliding weight scale, kept hanging up.  This one doesn't lie.

 I was having a hard time with my 48" B-9 saw with 9/32" teeth especially with frozen logs.  Just quit cutting.  I decided to try another 48" saw that came with my Corinth.  This saw is a different beast, D-7 with 5/16 teeth.  I had my doubts when I brought it up to speed because it chattered badly even with plenty of daylight at the guides, but once in a log it calmed down and got to work.  I am back to sawing.  

 again.  

[moodnacreek]

Trapper, I have never seen a D style, how many teeth? [I do have a 4 1/2 style in 52"x 30 tooth]

[moodnacreek]

Glendaler, forgot to say that the splitter should be thicker than the blade, 3/8" I believe . On the height it gets tricky. For safety it should be high and curved and close say 1" from teeth. But then you can't put on a larger saw. And the other thing is that if you saw oversized logs they get stuck on the splitter. You may want to grind a taper on the upper part, that's what I did. The splitter must wedge the slab or board away from the saw but not touch the cant. Sometimes a thin tapered slab will shut and go on the inside of the splitter, not good, this is why the splitter should be close to the saw. So you see there is no perfect splitter. The old round ones are really dangerous.

[Trapper John]

Moodnacreek, that saw has 36 teeth.  It's interesting that B, D, and F all take the same teeth.  I have another saw, an 44", 40t,

 3-8 and I found the old Simonds shanks are not replaced with new Simonds shanks. But the dealer did have some old shanks labeled HOPPE and I will try them soon.  

[moodnacreek]

Trapper, sounds like you got some old saws to play with, me to. Those style 3 shanks you need could be oversize, not std. For the postage I could send you any style 3 shanks from my collection.

[luap]

Thanks again Luap, you explain things clearly and quite helpful.  So that valve could work if I make it open center with a sleeve?  Or should I just order a $150 motor spool valve from Surplus Center?
Glendaler, the Belsaw manual says 3 turns but I don't think it makes much difference.  I have 5 or so wraps and the extra has come in handy when I am playing with carriage hookup.  
Here is my scale, I did not like the sliding weight scale, kept hanging up.  This one doesn't lie.

 I was having a hard time with my 48" B-9 saw with 9/32" teeth especially with frozen logs.  Just quit cutting.  I decided to try another 48" saw that came with my Corinth.  This saw is a different beast, D-7 with 5/16 teeth.  I had my doubts when I brought it up to speed because it chattered badly even with plenty of daylight at the guides, but once in a log it calmed down and got to work.  I am back to sawing.  

 again.  

No, the plug with sleeve would just close the power beyond port. The open center vs closed center is the difference of design on the internal spool. The power beyond feature allows you to add another valve downstream to control another function. I would buy a new valve and save your existing one in case you  add something in the future.If you did plug the pyb port with the right plug, you could hook up the valve and test it to find out if open vs closed. Those plugs have a short sleeve with an oring  so might not be easy finding the correct one. alternatively you could connect a line to the as is pyb fitting to your return line to tank and make the other normal in, return line connections and connect the working ports to your hyd motor. With open center you should be able to rotate the hyd motor with lever in neutral position. You could do this without hydraulic pump running but the system would have to be charged with oil. It may take some leverage to turn it but it will turn if open center. closed center will not turn. Used hydraulic components can be a gamble but can save money vs buying new.

[Trapper John]

Thanks again Luap, sounds easier to just buy a new valve.  What is the definition of a motor spool valve?  Is it simply any valve that controls a motor or is it more specific?
Moodnacreek, the new Simonds shank on the left in that photo is called a small v while the shank on the right is what is in my saw and is the regular.  The Hoppe shanks the dealer sent me (at no charge) are the right ones and I tried the saw today.  So far this 44" saw has worked better than the 48 inchers I have been using.  Maybe has something to do with smaller diameter or maybe its better tensioned for my application.  In any case the 9/32 teeth are doing fine.  Why do you think your 2 1/2 tooth style works good in spruce?

[moodnacreek]

Trapper, 2 1/2 style is small gullet/more teeth. More teeth=more power needed. The reason for more teeth is that the closer the teeth are the straighter the saw will cut. Course tooth saw [what you would use on a bellsaw] dodge the knots and other nasty spots in the log as fine tooth have another tooth close behind before things get out of hand. Out of the 5 saws I have, an old hoe in 2 1/2 is my favorite, better than my new payne. On small to medium sized knotty logs, feeding fast, a 2 1/2 is good. The all around favorite today is the F saw . In my beloved 2 1/2 I have obsolete winter shanks and regular chrome teeth, 9/32. 5/16, if you have power may be better in spruce.

[luap]

Thanks again Luap, sounds easier to just buy a new valve.  What is the definition of a motor spool valve?  Is it simply any valve that controls a motor or is it more specific?
Moodnacreek, the new Simonds shank on the left in that photo is called a small v while the shank on the right is what is in my saw and is the regular.  The Hoppe shanks the dealer sent me (at no charge) are the right ones and I tried the saw today.  So far this 44" saw has worked better than the 48 inchers I have been using.  Maybe has something to do with smaller diameter or maybe its better tensioned for my application.  In any case the 9/32 teeth are doing fine.  Why do you think your 2 1/2 tooth style works good in spruce?

Motor spool valve : work ports connected to tank in neutral,
cylinder spool valve: work ports blocked in neutral.

[glendaler]

Well, a year later and I finally made sawdust. Theres a long way to go yet but my feed belt came and there was enough in place to give it a go. My first piece is less than 1/8" variation so I'm optimistic. Dark now so pics later.

[moodnacreek]

Good to hear. At this point it is about the minimum lead and keeping the saw cold.

[glendaler]

So far that's just the initial lead I set up when I installed the saw, will have to check again. Splitter and carriage scale are next.



 



 



 

[moodnacreek]

Cute, that's a better feed than the newer bellsaws.

[bandmiller2]

Creeker, what's dangerous about round splitters.?? I've been blissfully milling for years, unaware of pending disaster. Frank C.

[moodnacreek]

On a round splitter you have 2 semi circle humps; the rolling splitter and the saw and they form a valley. Any piece of slab , a broken place on the log, etc. that falls in that spot is a blur coming for your face. A knife splitter, close to the saw is safer and the banana splitter the safest of all. The rear of a circle saw [and the top] is what launches stuff at you.

[jimparamedic]

Real nice job. l like the compact size of it that would be a good size to take to shows. My splitter is  1/4" 5" wide and 24" tall plate ground to knife edge front back and top mounted about 2" behind the saw with 3 AL thread for adjustment so it can be canted at an angle to help open up the cut

[glendaler]

Thanks, I did think it would be pretty easy to move if it was on skids and just pull it up onto a trailer, but one thing at a time. I did get my splitter on, mounted it with 5/8" fine thread bolts for adjustment. I cut 9 4x4's (3.5 actually) so far, I have cutting one those out of a 6" log down to a science now. Can't believe how quick it can be done. I put a 12" log up and it showed all of my flaws though. 

-I replaced the feed drive belt but not the feed belt within the feedworks, its rotten and broke
-My carriage is too close to the blade and the bigger log with some funky grain pulled the blade over enough to nick the carriage.
-The bed needs to be braced and supported better in a couple spots, I can see it moving at times
-The slot in my guide wheels is too wide compared to my guides, thought I could get away with it but it's probably another reason the blade was able to touch the carriage. I'll be machining new wheels.
-Somebody dropped something once or probably repeatedly (heavy logs) on the carriage so it's low in the center forcing both ends up a bit. I thought the weight of the log would push it down but its allowing the carriage to teeter-totter a bit so the log shudders up and down.
-The feed drive belt wont seem to track properly either, it stays on but is 1/2" to one side. I really don't want to ruin that new very expensive belt.
-I forgot about guide rail scrapers/brushes on the carriage so I started getting a build up of compacted chips on the track right away. Trying to cut in a fine mist of rain doesn't help.

All this will have to wait a bit, in addition to building a sawmill I've decided to make hay for the first time this year so just as last month was dedicated to the sawmill, this month is dedicated to hay gear. I'll update as I go for those interested though.

[glendaler]

 


 

 



 


 


 

 

[moodnacreek]

Glendaler, I don't think you can keep the carriage flat, mine was cambered so that the center missed the track unless loaded in the center. Also dogging logs can spring the carriage. Did we talk about the cable pulleys? From them then cable must pull straight to the carriage on both ends or the side play will be forced one way[carriage rollers] This is important. The off bear skids should be plated solid. You have gone this far but the finishing details always take forever. Hope you get some dry weather, good luck haying, I miss doing that.