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Clark 664d problems

Started by Mlamountain, April 07, 2011, 03:29:53 PM

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Mlamountain

Hi, Im new here

I have a Clartk ranger 664d.  It has a cummins 4bta in it.  I bought  it a few years ago and it used to run mint.  Lately over the last year or so it seems to have almost no power at all.  This is the first diesel I've ever owned but Im leaning towards the injector pump being messed up.  Im also thinking that the engine may be having some problems. 

Well so far i changed all the air filters. changed all the fuel/oil/ tranny filters. new throttle cable. new ebrake cable. bled the fuel system. fixed exaust leaks. new injectors. changed fuel in/out lines. checked to make sure the turbo spins freely. new lift pump.

Im planning to do a compression test before anything else. I checked into getting a compression tester and I found one on the harbor freight website. The only thing is Im not sure if it is compatible with the 4bta. While I was on th HF website I also checked out a injector pump test kit, which I almost ordered until I noticed it said it worked with almost every pump "except bosch".

The way i figure it is Im losing $1000s every week that my skidder has no power.  I used to be able to drive up any hill in 2nd gear without any problems, the only time I ever needed first was going up a hill with a large twitch.  Now i cant drive up any hills in first gear, never mind second.

Any insight or suggestions wquld be much appreciated.  This used to be an awesome machine when all was good but now it is just a daily bummer.  Hopefully I can get things back in order.

Bobus2003

First off.. Welcome!! How does the machine start? Hard starting? Does it smoke at idle? Blue, White? Does it puff black smoke when you give it some fuel or make it work any? Does it have any blow-by out the dip stick? Could be that your little cummins is in need of a rebuild..

Depending on what kind of Compression tester you get, some will go in the glow plug hole(if equipped with them) and others will just go into the injector hole. Do you have any Diesel shops near you? May be just as easy to remove the pump and take it to them to have it tested

Mlamountain

Well the machine doesnt start at all really, unless i give it the tinyest spray of ether into the air filter.  When it starts up there is white smoke big time.  Never really seen any black smoke, ever.  I do notice some blowback when coming out of the engine oil fill.  No glowplugs on this 4bta cummins. 

I looked into getting a rebuild kit for the engine and found one on ebay for $505.  My only worry is ill go through all the trouble of rebuilding the engine, getting it put back together, and will still ahve no power.

There is a diesel shop not to far from the woodlot.  I might just take the IP over to them to test.  I tried to take the pump off a couple weeks ago and the fuel in line kinda started to kink so before I destroyed anything I gave up that idea so I wouldnt cause to much damage.

rick f

welcome, if the deisel shop is close why not spend the money for an hour of there time.  Have them there at startup. They can tell real quick if it needs a rebuild. They might even have a quick fix if it doesn't.
If you are losing money in lost production then spending a little may get you back to making money sooner.
Just my 2 cents, take it for what you paid for it.
good luck, Rick
664 clark skidder
1- 562 husky
1- 254xp husky
1 - 268xp husky
1250 JD farm tractor with skid winch
5040 kubota farm tractor

timbuck2

I had a 667c w a 453, bad injectors squirted fuel directly on top of the pistons burned holes in one,  looked just like someone shot a hole in it with a 22.  Cold start wuold blow the dipstick out of it's place.  Traded for a Jack, still have it.

bill m

I have a brush chipper with the same motor and it was doing the same thing. You should have a fuel pump on the side of the motor with a lever or plunger for priming. There is a screen behind the fitting where the fuel line from the tank connects. check to see that it is not plugged. That was the problem with my motor.
NH tc55da Metavic 4x4 trailer Stihl and Husky saws

treefarmer87

tlandrum has a nice clark 666 he might be able to help you
1994 Ford L9000
2004 Tigercat 718
1998 Barko 225
1999 John Deere 748G
FEC 1550 slasher
CTR 314 Delimber
Sthil 461
Sthil 250

240b

is there oil in the coolant ?   (black slime on top of coolant)

snowstorm

i have the same motor in a fowarder. it will start at 10 without either -20 with a little smoke at start thats normal. lots of white is not thats incomplete combustion. how many hrs???? use oil? that motor dose not have wet liners. therefore to do a proper reman the motor must go to a machine shop an have the cylinders bored oversize. this engine was designed to do this. its also the same engine case uses

kiko

Blow-by comes from 2 places only.  Compression going around piston rings and turbo boost going into crank case. Since turbo shaft feels good it is likely piston problems and as stated above this engine does not have wet liners. The injection lines can be broke off one at a time at injectors with engine running. When you break the one off above the bad hole effectivly cutting off feul to that cly the smoke should clear off and return when you tighten line back up. By all means use a wrench to do this and not your hand as you do not want diesel fuel injected into your finger or hand . Compression check will require a special adaptor that looks similar to the injector.
any old compression gage will work. Chances of this being a injection pump problem are very, very slim. Also an injector failure not addressed can cascade into to piston/cly wall failure as liquid diesel will wash down the cly wall.

lumberjack48

Are you sure its not a bad torque converter or burnt packs in the tran, this can make it feel like the motor is losing power, just a thought
Third generation logger, owner operator, 30 yrs felling experience with pole skidder. I got my neck broke back in 89, left me a quad. The wife kept the job going up to 96.

Mlamountain

Well today I checked for that screen before the lift pump.  I took off all the lines leading to the lift pump and didnt find any screen.  I thought that maybe you were talking about the line going into the injector pump but when I tried to take off the in-line it started to kink so I quit that.  I think that Ill have to actually destroy that line if I ever decide to take the injector pump off.

Im not to sure if its the torque converter or transmission.  I thought that it may be but Im not really sure how to test it.  Thats why I figured I try to do a compression test first and see where its at.  The engine does rev up kinda allright it seems and kinda bogs down when I put a load to it.  It does rev up a little slower than it used to though.

As far as the white smoke goes, it is only big time white smoke when the machine first starts.  After a few minutes it clears right up.  The coolant level was to low to actually see if there was any oil in it.

I was thinking that I would be able to rebuild the engine myself (although I've never rebuilt anything bigger than a chainsaw.)  I found completely rebuilt cummins 4bta engines on the internet for anywhere from $2500-3000.  I was thinking that that may be cheaper than trying to rebuild the one I have.  My only worry would be that I would put all that work into the engine, get it all put back together and I still would have no power.

snowstorm

any old compression guadge will work if it goes to 500lbs. i would have to look it up but maybe 450. you can check convertor an trans with a stall test. but you need a tach. lock up the breaks trans in high gear throtle to the floor book will tell you how fast engine should turn. if the spec is 1800rpm and it turns 2400 ya got a problem . it will save you cash to find someone that knows that motor or buy a good reman. they are a 10000hr motor if taken care of

UN Hooker

Mlamountain

   If you wish to do a compression check, I've made the adapters that take the place of the injector.
If you would like to borrow one, it could be arranged.

       UN
Retired Toolmaker/Moldmaker
C-4 & C5D TF - 5500 Iron Mule - Restored 4400 Ford Ind. FEL ex Backhoe w/custom built boom w/Valby 360* grapple w/18' reach - 920 Cat w/bucket & forks w/clamp - Peterson 10" WPF - LT-15 - Cooks Catsclaw & Dual tooth setter - many Husky saws

Mlamountain

UN-  I would def be interested in borrowing an adaptor.  Im not very far from you at all and wouldnt mind taking a trip.  My machine is next to worccester ma but I live in Holland MA which isnt very far at all.  I've never done a compression test before but I do know how to get the injectors out now that I made a homemade puller.

Snow-  The machine does not have a tach on it.  What you are saying is that I should put it in high (3rd) gear, lock the brakes up and punch it and it should only rev so high?  I havent been able to find an exact manual for this machine.  I did find one for a f665 on the allied website but Im not sure how much of the stuff transfers to the 664.

snowstorm

ya wouldnt punch it wide open for however the book says a min or two you would need a handheld tach they use a refelective sticker on the engine damper. how hot dose your trans run??? on mine the book says 200 to 230. too high a gear will heat the oil

kiko

Snap - on part number for compression adaptor is M3584.  If compression is determined not to be an issue, here are some other things that will cause low power condition on a 4bta. Anaroid tube from injection pump to head, if this is broken or has a hole in will cause low power under load .  Air pipe from turbo to intake boot with a hole or broken clamp will cause a loss of boost pressure. Lift pump pressure should be 7 psi, this can be measured where fuel line form lift pump connects to the cly head. There is a bleed screw in the banjo fitting. The pressure test fitting can be made by brazing a fitting to where the bleeder screw is. If you use a Jic  fitting for example, you can cap it when you are done and have a permanant test fitting for future diagnosis. Without being at the machine the possibilities are many and could be any of the things I have mentioned as well what others have mentioned.  There is also a o-ring under the fuel filter head that I have seen give problems( if it has the two filter head on the engine)They keep coming to me... If it has electric shut off fuel shut off valve could only be opening partially. Fuel shut-off valve on feul tank could be clogged with debree. One more point about lift pump. There is a small filter in lift pump (o e m pump) this filter cannot be changed . So a contaminated fuel system will immediatly stop up this filter on a new lift pump. To see this filter you can take the old lift pump and cut it apart to see what I am speaking of. A inline filter installed prior to lift will catch the contaminates and the fiters are a lot cheaper than a lift pump. Hope some of this helps you get back to dragging. If you decide to pull injection pump I will glad to assist with info to time engine and pump before removing.


oldseabee

664D Cummins Idle 800-900 RPM, High Idle 2700-2800 RPM, Converter stall 2140-2300 RPM, Full stall converter and hydraulics, 1650-1880 RPM. Main Hydraulic pressure 2200 PSI
Readings are taken with hot transmission oil (180-200 deg). Put in high gear with brakes on and partially stall converter to raise oil temp, ( hold stall for no more then 30 seconds, then go to neutral and release the brakes for 30 seconds, then back to stall) if the oil isn't up to temp you will get false stall reading. First do converter stall test then use the blade raise to stall the hydraulics along with the converter. Make sure that the hydraulics main relief is set to 2200 PSI before starting test. When the brakes are applied, all lube oil is diverted to the brake for cooling, that is why you have to release the brake periodically during the heating of the transmission oil, alternative would be to put on parking brake and tie machine to a sturdy tree if you have decent traction.

Autocar

This post get's more interesting as time passes  ;D Looks like quite a few things to check out before a fellow dives in with both feet . Good place to get information from years of men working on equipment in the woods  :D
Bill

logman81

I think this skidder is for sale on MA craigslist?
Precision Firewood & Logging

Mlamountain

I do appreciate all the info and it gives me a few different things to try to solve my power issues.  Its kinda tough to wrap my head around everything everyone has suggested but I will make my way through them and hopefully I can get this thing figured out.  When It was 100% it was an awesome machine and a blast to use everyday.  It didnt even feel like I was at work.

Logman-  Yes this is the skidder that is listed on craigslist in mass.  I think I listed it for 11k.  Im hoping to get it straightend out but if I cant then Im gonna sell it and get something else ( or do something else).  Nash offered me 10k cash or trade but thats quite aways away from the bottom of mass.  Its alot easier to carry $100 bills to colbrook than it is a 664.

kiko

Clark 664d , which transmission does it have?  Is torque converter seperate from trans and if so check trans suction hose. Also check trans pump pressure. Should be around 250 psi. Is that right oldseebee?

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