diesel 'shootin

[redpowerd]

i have a ton 85 6.9 that is stairin at a fuel pump prob.
i drove it from nc, ran like new.
i have ALL air and water out of the lines.
the only way i can get her to idle is if i hold it to the floor, and then she just goes at 15, comp test @ 15% over a;;

any of the forum members work on these?

[rebocardo]

6.9 = 1986 F-350 6.9 naturally aspired diesel?

I suggest www.ford-trucks.com

for some good help.

Start in the
Pre Power Stroke forum.

I have worked at Ford dealers and at Ryder on diesel class 8/tractors, though I am far from an expert on them. One thing I might suggest is using a fuel system cleaner and changing the fuel filter again.

I see you are from NY and the truck came from NC. It may be as simple as putting a brand name "real" winter fuel in there along with an anti-gel additive and anti-algae additive. Then change the filter again.

There might be a pre filter on the hose from the gas tank that needs to be cleaned.

Make sure you or a gas attendent did not put gas instead of diesel into the tank.

Hope you solve it soon.

[redpowerd]

after i got it home i burned aprox 3-4 tanks of red diesel in it, no problem. the problem started with a slow loss of power, so i changed the filter and ran some cetane boost and anti-gel thru it. nothing. noticed some wetness around some return lines from the injectors, replaced them along with the caps, nothing.
ill check out ford-diesel and see if they can help.
thanks
jon

[Kirk_Allen]

Not familiar with deisals but it sounds like a collapsed catyletic vonverter creating way to much back pressure.

[redpowerd]

nope, no cadillac conveyors here, just 3" straight pipes. think ima gunna yank all the injectors today an get em pop tested. it may be time for new ones, if h20 got in there. 27 bucks apiece. i think the new ford PSD injectors are over 200 apeice!

[rebocardo]

> if h20 got in there.

Do you have a filter on the top of the motor under a big black cap or do you have the one with a drain on the side of the engine? I do not see how it could get into the injectors if you have one with a drain.

Maybe, before you go further, you should get a locking gas cap to make sure noone is messing with the truck.

It might not hurt to drain the tank. You can buy a VW bug fuel pump, some rubber hose and empty the tank easy on your truck. Then drop the tank and make sure nothing is inside the tank that is being sucked up and blocking the line(s).
 

[Fla._Deadheader]

Had a Cadillac Diesel a while back. There is a "sock" filter on the end of the fuel line, inside the tank. After years of being in fuel, it will get real soft and be sucked up against the end of the fuel line, causing fuel starvation. We dropped the tank and removed the "sock". Added an in-line filter and problem solved.

[Frickman]

My little JD 440 skidder has a screen in the tank also. The tank can't be removed and cleaned without removing the winch, and after forty years plenty of dirt and debris have accumulated in it. This dirt would clog the screen, starving the fuel pump. We'd take the fuel line loose at the pump and blow air back through the line to clear the screen off. Set up a portable air tank just for the job. This winter it got to be everyday, sometimes twice a day. Last time it happened I had to rig up a fuel can on the hood to run the machine down out of the woods. Not too fun of a job when it's ten degrees out. I had an extra tank lying around, had been a hyrdraulic oil tank on the roof of my forwarder before I changed things around. It's real heavy steel and had mounting tabs welded to it, so I mounted it to the roof of the skidder. Ran rubber lines down to the fuel pump and back up from the injectors. Been running it for several months and no problems. Have to stand on the winch to dump fuel in but that's no big deal.

Rig yourself up an electric fuel pump and a can of diesel somehow and try it. You'll at least narrow it down to being from the fuel pump and beyond or from the pump back to the tank.

[redpowerd]

ahh, a good thought, but shes allready got an electric lift pump. its real handy for priming the filter and purging air after a change.

[Buzz-sawyer]

Hey Frickman...I like the way you use logic to solve problems of fuel....I like to do the same when trouble shooting Redpower....
For example with ignition problem start with battery and create a working system including a temporary replacement wire as I go....with fuel start at the fuel source....use a temporary , known clean container and new line on to the temp replacement pump...
Red I KNOW you know what your doin cause of ALL that tired iron you own ...you could probably do a class on making tired iron run....just voicing the way I approach it...
Also, every diesel tank gains water over time it is just periodic maintenance to rid it of the accumulated water
Don

[Frickman]

Buzz, It's not so much logic as experience, I've been broke down in a lot of bad ways in bad places. I like to break everything down into systems and those systems into sections. If I can I locate the specific section that's causing the problem then it's easier to diagnose. If I can change something and make it better I do that too. That skidder had been giving me problems for years, and toting it out of the woods with a fuel tank on the hood give me the idea to mount it on the roof. It's not factory stock but it works real well.

Redpowered, I had an electric pump in an old car once. You'd test it and it would have plenty of pressure, but out on the road it would quit intermittently. We didn't narrow it down till we bypassed it with another rigged up pump and tank. I can't remember what the problem was, but I don't think it was the pump. I think it had something to do with the wiring into it. You'd go down the road and the vibrations would cause a short in the wiring, causing the pump to momentarily quit and the engine to stumble. A few seconds later the connections would be good and the pump would come back on. We probably rewired something and fixed it up good as new. There's been plenty of repair jobs since so the details are kind of foggy.

[redpowerd]

it pumps fine and hard. not too worried about fuel delevery.

heres what sucks, theres no water seperator. the previous owner removed it about 15 years ago i have plans on using a sep/filter unit from a 684. got lots of them spare filters kickin around. theres 2 of them, h20 bein first and they have handy bleeders on each.

should know the results of the pop test tomorro. hate havin them injectors out for any length of time. i may have to replace a few.

whats weird is how it runs, 1500rpms at WOT. there may be some h20 retarding the pump.

[mhasel]

Few years back my uncle kept having troubles with his MF 265 diesel tractor, I'd change the filter bleed the lines and it would be good for a few hours to a day. Pulled the screen from the bottom of the tank replaced all the steel lines and still same problem, finally the dealer suggested bacteria in the tank from some old fuel. So I removed the tank and used lacquer thinner to soak each surface of the tank for 10 to 15 minutes and then would drain out the blackest tar you ever wanted to see. After this tractor ran and started fine just stayed away from that old storage tank after that:)

Mike

[gmmills]

redpowerd,
   If that engine has a Roosa-Master injection pump make sure the return line from the pump back through the whole system is open to tank. Also check to see if the return line fitting at the pump has a oneway check valveand that the valve stuck closed with debri.
   Had a 4 cyl. Roosa-Master pump on a JD engine that had a restricted return line at pump check valve. It didn't what to run over 1400 rpm's. Any high than that it would shut itself down. The return lines have to be wide open.

[sawhead]

diesel stop .com has a forum for these older 6.9 engines. I have 2 of them and they are good engines ,a little cantakerous at times but good. My suggestion would make sure you have a clean filter and also check your injection pump timing . The water seperator on the ford trucks were notorious for sucking air , so most got  removed or routed around and replaced with racor water seperators. I have over 300,000 on the one I drive everyday and very little problems

[IMERC]

Red
If yur getting some to a lot of white smoke your fuel pump may be pulling oil from the crankcase. This also gives you low fuel pressure but meets the fuel flow rate.
Another problem is bad "O" rings or a air leak in the fuel lines. East repair and cheap.
You may have a worn line gear on the injector pump.Last place to look.
Timming lock bolt is loose.
There is a super fine screen inside of the fuel inlet on the carb. Pull the cap / plug nut and clean the screen.
You have water in the system. The fire wall mounted water seperators on those trucks were the pitts. They are a bear to really drain. Can't be repaired and allow air infiltration because they refuse to reaseal after you pop the drain. Replace it a quality marine water seperator. You'll be doing yourself a favor.
Think in terms of lean fuel or unwanted air is getting in.
What color or colors is your exhaust. Black, blue or white or a mix there of.

[redpowerd]

i know you didnt mean to say 'carb' :D

wheres the jam bolt for the timing?

[IMERC]

Red...
CRS and old age again... I can't escape it. I can see it in my mind's eye put can't remember to save my butt what some of that stuff is called.
Call it anything you want.  It's that gizzmo under the air cleaner... The screen is inside that cubie looking thing on the drivers side of it. You'll know what I'm talking about as soon as you see it. Have a spare screen on hand before you dig in. the screen that's there is delicate and maybe trashed. One tank of crappy fuel can trash it.
The jamb nut is on the outside perimeter of the injector pump. It mat have a keeper or a lock cam under the nut. PITA to get to if it is on the underside but it takes a 9/16" starter wrench (C shaped) and all you'll get is tiny little turns. If you move the injector pump 1/2 degree that is a lot. 1 degree of turn is radical. Put line up marks on the injector pump and the gear shruod before you do any thing.
Got my '85 to go 485K before I sold it.
But wait there is more...
If you work on the "O" rings get yourself the the O ring installation / removal tool. Goofy looking pick with spatula and hook ends. You won't regret it. It'll save you a lot aggrevation.
The more I think about it that is the 1st place I would look. Pull the injector caps, change the O rings. DO NOT OVER TIGHTEN ANY THING when you put it back together. Slightly snug is all ir wants to start. Run the engine and check for leaks. Got a leak... 1/10 of turn to tighen should do it. Maybe 10$ and an hour of your time on the O rings. Use a flare nut wrench for this job 'cause a regular wrench will tear up stuff and set you back worse than square one, then you you'll have to dig out 2 of your wallets and raid the DW's purse. If there is fuel sitting on top of your engine that will be a sure bet that is one of the problems, it's not a minor one. It also indicates that the fuel overpressure / return lines are leaking. This is not a good thing either. Wastes a lot of money, Total overhaul might get into 20 / 25$. A person with small hands is a major asset.
The way the engine acts it can very easily be a combination of any these problems areas.
Still would like to know what your exhaust colors are.
Also every place you go look for fuel frothing. That's an indicator of thickened fuel, water in it or you got you some fuel with fuel oil in it that was put in for a stetcher. Southern states are real bad about this.

[redpowerd]

imerc, thanks for the help.
as i stated earlier in this thread, ive been thru the fuel lines, replaced caps and return lines, and currently have the injectors out for a pop test(not back yet >:(thats a topic for another thread!)

im waiting on a compression tester, im afraid one of the glowplugs may have desintegrated and fell onto the cylinder. >:( >:(

are you talking about the debris screen under the air filter? or is there another one by the blowby tube?

white smoky

[IMERC]

Red... No problem. Glad to help..,..
All the lines I'm talkin' about are under the hood and on top of the engine. They connect one injector to another.
The screen is inside of a small cube mounted on the lower portion of the asperator towards the front - drivers side. The screen is super fine mesh made from brass and the size of a thumb nail.
The glow plug more than likely shorted out and incinerated / dissoveled into nothing - it happens. The whole glow plug new wouldn't hurt the cyclinder or piston. Any particals from it are history. Kinda like throwing a beer can into a stump grinder. BTW when you ohm out the glow pugs, try for 1ohmn preferred to 1.5 ohms max. Make sure all the readings on the plugs match within 5% or so. Really unequal readings can tear up your 150$ clock / sensor / timer. It's a balanced system. If you hear rapid or intermitent relay clicking when you are in start sequence that's the reason. Fixed a couple because they had a seizure and caught fire. Engine fires make for interesting entertaiment.  Also let them full cycle when starting. Wait to start light needs to go out before you crank.
White smoke is lean burn. That can destroy the pistons in a desiel / wrist pins and rods.. Blows holes in the pistons for openers.
WTB that you have air infiltration. lets hope we can find an air leak. Change your fuel fiter. One tank of garbage fuel can ruin the filter, restrict the flow and put a dent in the delivery pressure. Drain the filter after you remove it into a clean container and look for crud. It's more of what you ran thru it than how long it's been in. a one time of really bad fuel cann mean a new FF every fill up for several fill ups till all the crud is cleaned out of the system. Air in the lines before the injectors cause the fuel to foam. This is not good. Low or fluctuating fuel presures can cause this too...
When you take on fuel and the fuel is taking a really long time to come out of the delivery hose get paranoid. Go get fuel from someplace else. The station IS NOT maintaining their pumps. Desiel has got to be filterd and filtered some more. It's a vital thing.
Hyper critical eye the water seperator on the fire wall. They either quit working, collect trash or allow air into the system. I've changed a few of them to after market ones fron NAPA for around 50$. Fixed a slew of problems and is good preventive medicine. The ones from Ford are junk out of the box.
If you can think of anything else that you have looked at or tried could you post that information too.

[IMERC]

DUH!!!
Went back and read the whole thread...
Put in the seperator and hunt down your air leak.
Do you have the mechanical fuel pump still in the system and is it working?

[Mark M]

Red, I didn't see where you mentioned changing the filter, I'm sure you must have done this? You might have a bacteria problem, especially without the water separator. This will cause repeated filter plugging until all the bacteria is removed from the system. Changing a filter will help for a while but it will plug again soon.

As for smoke, in my experience white smoke after warmup usually indicates coolant/water in the combustion chamber. Blue smoke is from burning oil. If it smokes on startup but quites after a while that usually indicates valve guide wear and or valve seal problem. Fuel problems such as a bad injector usually show up as gray smoke. Black smoke is not enough air or too much fuel.

Maybe you want to send me an oil sample? we can check for several possible problems. IM me and I'll give you the address.

Let us know how you are doing.

Mark

[IMERC]

Red
I was wonder how well you made out or didn't

[redpowerd]

i managed to get it buried in front of the garage yesterday, trying to shove it into the garage with the loader >:(
on top of the injectors not done, the starter went >:(
didnt stop the rain from starting up.

the shop PROMISED theyll be done by weeks end >:(
i cant whine, its free and theyre busy putting our new manure spreader together ;D

id like an oil test for all my equipment, i need to be redpowerd for as many years possible ;)
i think there would be 8 or 9.

[redpowerd]

the pop test showed the injectors were tolerable, orderd a few to replace the real bad ones someday.

started to dissasemble the pump, removed a check ball from the return line off the pump, tons of crap in there. good thing its a glass ball, i can see thru it when its clean. had a bunch of rubber in it. reinstalled it, ran great for a few seconds, then same prob. R+R 4 more times, still plugging

must be a seal desintegrating inside my pump, but what one, if it runs fine without it?

[IMERC]

Suspect yur fuel pump...

[redpowerd]

do you have one for me?
i can make it run into the woods and back

[IMERC]

No I ain't...
Not no more.. :'(

[gmmills]

Red,
  It's  the pump. I had the same problem with my  Deere.  That rubber is coming from the governor part of the pump. IT is part of the goveror weights retaining system and is breaking down into pieces. You can make it run by knockig out the glass check ball with a small punch. Don't do this as a permanent fix . If you run it too long the governor  may come apart and destroy the pump housing, NO CORE.
   Good Luck.

[redpowerd]

a friend of mine told me to do this, but ive cleaned the check valve so many times, the rubber stopped clogging(suspect its finished). runs like crap, dont want to destroy the check valve.
starts right up, but stumbles all the way to 2k, massive white smoke.

IM GOIN TO THE WANTED SECTION!!!!!!!!!!!!!

thanks for the help