Help on case bulldozer with Carco winch

mjeselskis · January 30, 2012, 07:31:36 PM

Hoping someone is familiar enough with this equipment to help me out. I've got a Case 320 (I think) bulldozer that was my grandfathers, then my fathers, and now mine 8). My father and I just put the 'new' winch on it from a parts machine. The old winch was strictly gear driven so this one is much nicer with the hydraulic controls.

The problem...
The hydraulic control lever has three positions: Center is supposed to have the break engaged, down is detent which is supposed to be free spool, and up retrieves the cable. The brake holds in center, and it pulls great when the handle is lifted. The problem is with the free spooling. The winch will free spool just before the control latches into the detent position. Once it latches into the detent, the brake engages again. You have to hold the control in a very precise position just above the detent point to get the winch to free spool. I've posted pictures of everything I think is relevant. The brake is supposed to be engaged with no hydraulic pressure applied, and the clutch is disengaged with no pressure.

The odd thing to me is that the pump supply is teed directly to the brake. It seems to me that the control valve would have to block flow to force the pressure to rise in that line to disengage the brake. The clutch portion is pretty straight forward. I've attached a schematic of what I believe the plumbing to be so everyone can see it. I appreciate any help. I'd like it to freespool in detent like it's supposed to, as it's a two man operation to get cable out now.

lumberjack48 · January 30, 2012, 07:59:33 PM

The one we had, you pushed it forward to release the winch, the motor would bog down when released, the lever stayed locked down on till you released it.

In the middle the brake was locked.

To winch in you pulled back

snowstorm · January 30, 2012, 08:08:24 PM

i'll try first oof never heard of a 320 310 yes back in the 60's. the filter is on the return side they always are. the work ports are always on the top of the valve. pressure and return on the side. the one you call pump brake should be pressure. with a open center hydr ......thats what you have.....the oil goes from pump to valve if the spool is in netural back to tank . move the spool work port is open oil goes to hydr cyl or whatever its hosed to. could be the ball an spring in the valve is worn after all it is 50 sumpin years old. a new valve shouldnt be much over $150

snowstorm · January 30, 2012, 08:10:03 PM

have no idear what happened but i didnt write it like that

mjeselskis · January 30, 2012, 08:26:56 PM

Appreciate Da help even though dis yooper'm not entirely sure what most of it meant...

dis yooper do believe dis is an open center control and in Da neutral position Da oil flows from Da pump to Da control, through Da filter and back to Da tank. When Da lever is pulled back Da oil is diverted to Da line going to Da clutch and dat's what engages Da clutch. What puzzles me is dat to get Da brake to disengage, dis yooper believe Da spool would essentially need to block Da flow from Da pump and cause Da reliefe valve to lift. dis would cause Da pressure in Da line coming out of Da pump to increase to Da relief valve set point and release Da brake.

dis yooper just don't understand why it works just above Da point dat Da detent latches in.

Da control is is different than any dis yooper've seen. Maybe dis yooper do need to shop for a new one, but it seems dat since it's so close dis yooper should be able to adjust something.

Edit: Not sure what happened, because I didnt write it like that..

mjeselskis · January 30, 2012, 08:30:57 PM

Quote from: snowstorm on January 30, 2012, 08:08:24 PM
dis yooper'll try first oof never heard of a 320 310 ya, you betcha back in Da 60's. Da filter is on Da return side dey always are. Da work ports are always on Da top of Da valve. pressure and return on Da side. Da one you call pump brake should be pressure. with a open center hydr ......thats what you have.....Da oil goes from pump to valve if Da spool is in netural back to tank . move Da spool work port is open oil goes to hydr cyl or whatever its hosed to. could be Da ball an Poor Sleddin season in Da valve is worn after all it is 50 sumpin years old. a new valve shouldnt be much over $150

Snowstorm, I think you are right, it must be a 310, might be a G if I remember right.

snowstorm · January 30, 2012, 08:35:16 PM

the releif valve goes back to tank

DDDfarmer · January 30, 2012, 08:49:13 PM

Here is a link to paccar winch division. I could not find your specific winch yet you might have better luck. You might have to contact them for more assistance.

http://www.paccarwinch.com/support/support.aspx

mjeselskis · January 30, 2012, 08:55:07 PM

Quote from: snowstorm on January 30, 2012, 08:35:16 PM
the releif valve goes back to tank

Right, got that part.

I'm stuck on figuring out how the pressure is supposed to be applied to the brake. The pressure is applied to the clutch through the work ports. But the brake is hooked directly to the output of the pump.

Now that I look at the picture of the control valve again, it looks just like a woodsplitter valve. I noticed that the second work port is plugged, so if I understand it, when the valve is down for freespool, the flow would normally flow out of the upper work port but is blocked due to that plug. That blockage would cause the fluid flow to be blocked and raise the pressure to disengage the brake.

Sorry if I'm not getting something obvious.

It looks like I can get a new woodsplitter control valve from surplus center for about $60.

Now for the simple question, can i adjust the valve so it works in the detent position, or is it just plain worn out?

snowstorm · January 30, 2012, 09:00:27 PM

one work port one fuction

mjeselskis · January 30, 2012, 09:04:34 PM

Quote from: snowstorm on January 30, 2012, 09:00:27 PM
one work port one fuction

Isnt that a second work port with a square head pipe plug in it just above the work port for the clutch?

tractormanNwv · January 31, 2012, 12:07:51 AM

My uncle has 1 of the case 310 diesel dozers ( 1968? ) with 4-way blade and a winch, his has a totally different control valve...more like a mastercylinder in my memory with a tall aluminum handle, push forward to wind up the cable and pull to spool off, real stout winch. I'm trying to find a pic of it, and see if it will help.

Jim

OntarioAl · January 31, 2012, 06:29:28 AM

mjeselskis
The brake is spring applied hydraulic release.
You are getting oil bypassing in the full "detent" position causing enough of a pressure drop to allow the brake to apply.
"T" in a pressure gauge (use a 0-3000 psi 1st since the system presssure is unknown ) on the inlet to your valve and note the pressure when you engage the winch, now put the control into free spool and note the pressure.
I think that you will find a significant pressure drop when the valve is in the detent position.
I have my doubts as to being able to repair the existing valve.
The system operating pressure that you ubserved will allow you to set up the relief on replacement valve.
Hope this helps
Al

thecfarm · January 31, 2012, 08:26:07 AM

Using that to winch logs out with?

mjeselskis · January 31, 2012, 06:35:10 PM

Quote from: thecfarm on January 31, 2012, 08:26:07 AM
Using that to winch logs out with?

Yes, I use this when the snow gets too deep for the wheeled tractors. We usually plow the main drag road to leave about 6" of snow for the wheeled tractors and pull the logs to the trail edge with the bulldozer.

Al, you confirmed what I was thinking. I will need to get a pressure gauge to check it out. Somehow the oil is getting around the spool and letting the pressure drop when the valve is in the detent position

UN Hooker · January 31, 2012, 11:22:47 PM

mjeselskis

Before you replace the valve, pull the cap off the bottom,(opposite the handle) and check to see if the bolt that holds the spring and washers may be loose. That might let the spool shift.
UN

Blackfly · February 07, 2012, 01:47:43 AM

mjeselskis-

I've got a Case 310 with the same winch (Carco model C12), and I'm having the same difficulty with the free spooling. The control valve is a rotary valve with no name or markings. The lever was held in position by two light springs, one is broken and the other is just gone, so I have to keep it wired in the neutral position or it flops around. The internals must be leaky and worn because it's hard to find the sweet spot where it releases the brake and it's not consistent. Anyone familiar with this valve?

I was thinking about replacingthe valve with a log splitter valve too, but was wondering if the feature that causes the valve to pop into neutral when the splitter cyinder fully retracts would get in the way of it holding in detent for the winch brake release, since it has to hold under pressure. Would this be a problem?

For what it's worth, from the operators manual-
Pump output 1 gpm.
Hydraulic pressure 1000 – 1200 psi at low idle speed and oil warmed up.
Oil- 6 qts motor oil sae30wt above 90F, 20wt from 90-32F, 10wt from 32-0F, ATF type A below 0F. 5W-20 or 10W-30 if daily temp changes are extreme.
"Don't leave the winch in free spool position for more than two or three minutes at a time."
A picture shows the pressure gauge tee installed in the line from the valve you have labeled as to the clutch, and you measure pressure with levr in free spool position.

tractormanNwv- the winch control you describe may be on a Gearmatic #9. I think they were used on the 310's also.