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Blade lubes...convince me..help me...

Started by Percy, May 19, 2003, 08:23:39 PM

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Percy

Well I been running my new LT70 for a month now and I decided to become more "eco" considerate and have been using water and dishsoap in the newfangled Lubemizer system..Works ok but theblades are always covered with crap untll I givem a 30 second shot of "continuous". The guides are always noisy and dirty with woodchips and sap/whathave you and I gotta fill the lube tank up almost everyday. When I ran diesel in the old LT40 gravity drip system, Id have it dripping about one drip a second and a tank would last for about a week. The guides ran quieter and were always clean, and the blades were usually clean whenever I tookem off. The sawdust soaked up  the diesel drips and things were generaly cleaner cept for the lube tank area.
Sooooo, whats everyone else using???does anyone have a concoction that works as good as diesel and wont screw up my Lubemizer pump??? I dont wanna go back to diesel but this dishsoap is no match for it.
GOLDEN RULE : The guy with the gold, makes the rules.

Kevin_H.

Percy,
I run one gallon of windshield washer fluid with 4 gallons of water, I do this year round...Now maybe its just my imagination, but I think it works...

Most of the time i just give it a little shot now and then.
Got my WM lt40g24, Setworks and debarker in oct. '97, been sawing part time ever since, Moving logs with a bobcat.

biziedizie

Stick with water.....save the earth for our children.....bag the clean sawdust and sell it to Japan.

  Try washer fluid in the mix it seems to keep the blades very clean.

  Just some thoughts......just some thoughts!

   Steve

Mark M

Hi Percy

I have less experience that almost anyone on this group when it comes to sawing, but I am a chemist and know a little about solubility. I started out using windshield wiper fluid (Methanol) mainly because it wouldn't freeze. It's pretty cheap and seems to do a good job, at least on the spruce I sawed last weekend. I only sawed one log so it might not have been enough to tell. I think you could dilute it quite a bit, maybe start at about 1:4 (1 part fluid to 3 parts water). Downside on Methanol is it's a deadly poison.

I thought about trying the RV antifreeze (Propylene Glycol) but haven't. It is a lot less toxic than Methanol and is very similar to an alcohol. I've heard of people using Pine-sol but here again I don't have any experience. It's going to be hard to beat the diesel fuel, but you should be able to find something that works pretty well.

I just thought of sumptin,   8) maybe you can get a hold of some B100 bio-diesel or make your own from french fry oil or animal fat (its pretty easy). B100 is pure bio-diesel whereas B20 is 20% etc. The most common one (that I'm familiar with) is a methyl-ester made from soybean oil and it should dissolve sap pretty DanG good. I would recommend testing a little on some of the lube system components to see it they are affected (like I said I only know a little about solubility :-/ ).

Here is a link for some info on Bio-Diesel. It is a very promising fuel (too bad politicians had to get involved). Bio Diesel Link

Good luck

Mark

PS - If you can't find any B100 I might be able to whip you up a small batch for testing. I'll bet this is the fancy stuff some sawmill manufacturers are selling for blade lube. :o Anyone have an MSDS sheet for WoodMizer or Timber King lube additive?

biziedizie

Hi Mark it's interesting what you just wrote about washer fluid, I never knew that it was that bad. Why is it that they don't have those little stickers on the jugs explaining that the contents are bad?
  
  Now for the big question! Can you find a product that would be great for us and great for the earth?
  I think it would be cool to have an expert on the board come up with something that would work!

   Steve

Mark M

Hi Steve

I think the bio-diesel could be the ticket, but I don't know that much about how esters affect plastics. Fuel systems have some polymerics and in some cases there are compatibility issues with gasket materials.

Bio-diesel has a lot of advantages over conventional diesel and it is good at removing fuel system and other deposits. It is much more biodegradable than diesel fuel although diesel fuel biodegrades too. B100 does however have a higher cloud point so there can be some flow problems at low temperatures. For diesel engines they usually use fuel heaters to keep the temperature of the fuel up and the viscosity down. Fuels made from animal fats have different flow characteristics than soy or french-fryer oil, but this shouldn't be an issue in the warmer months.

I'll see if I can find the recipe, it's pretty simple and basically you combine some raw oil, sodium or potassium hydroxide (a strong corrosive - danger!), and some methanol (nasty poison will make you blind!). What you are left with is the Methyl Ester fuel ( and mixture of several esters) and glycerol or glycerin (a lubricant commonly used to keep sheep from rusting). I would use fry grease because it is readily available. I'll try to get some more particulars.

Here is a picture of the reaction, don't worry about the symbols, just look at the names and you see what's going on.

Esterification Reaction - scroll to bottom

FYI - If I remember correctly Toilet Water (cheap perfume) is an ester. It breaks down easily in the presence of sweat and makes something stinky.

Here is a couple of more links:

MSDS Sheet

Spec Sheet for B100

National Bio-diesel Board
Note: this site is sponsored by a group trying to promote bio-diesel. There is good information here but keep in mind these folks are trying to sell a product so they sometimes focus more on what I call "warm-fuzzies" and public opinion than on hard science. I don't like the idea of mandating its use and I think they still need to do a little research on things like how it affects wear in engines. I do however think it is a very promising alternative fuel.

Mark



Percy

Hey everyone,thanks for the replys/suggestions. On the diesel thing,Mark, (seeing you are a chemist)just how bad is raw regular diesel for the enviroment in small doses?? I notice you said it is biodegradeable. I assume that means it  breaks down to somthing less harmfull eventually. I wonder about the dishsoap as well. I dont think for a moment it is anywhere as bad as diesel but im going through a heck of a lot of it and it must have some effect as well.

I have a spraycan of Canadian Tire Silicone lubricant and when I give the blade a squirt(dangerous), things clean up and get quiet fast. Is that stuff bad as well? If a guy could get some kinda silicone or Teflon lube in liquid form, Ill bet that would out perform diesel.......BUT....its probably bad......just like...heheh..lets not go there right now.....
GOLDEN RULE : The guy with the gold, makes the rules.

Neil_B

Mark, You may have come up with a sideline to your sawmill. I too have been using diesal but with a 50% mix of bar oil, and I just can't bear to have it spilling on the ground. I'm still leary to go to water because of the fact of all the steel on the mill and some things in contact are not greasable. I'll be going back to washer fluid again soon but still have reservations on that as well, environmentally.
Timberwolf / TimberPro sawmill, Woodmizer edger, both with Kubota diesels. '92 Massey Ferguson 50H backhoe, '92 Ford F450 with 14' dump/ flatbed and of course an '88 GMC 3500 pickup.

biziedizie

Thanks for the input Mark, you have some great information to share.
  In your opinion is diesel better for the environment then the washer fluid? You were saying that it breaks down but how long does it take?
  Another thing I was going to ask you is what's your opinion on creosote? Does this stuff leach into the ground and harm the environment or does it break down over time?
  Thanks again Mark.

     Steve

ARKANSAWYER

  I use some Dawn dish soap and Pine oil mixed in with my water.  I use some windshield washer fluid in the winter to keep it flowing.  I use about a gallon per 500 bdft of sawing.  My blades come out pretty clean.  I have sprayed WD40 in times of bad need and have tried other things.  Murphy oil soap works well and keeps the blue stain of the blade down on oak.  I put some off road diesel in a spray bottle one time when doing some heart pine but felt pretty bad about the mess I felt I was making.  But most of us spill some fuel and oil over time no matter how hard we try not to.  I guess I must be fairly "green" as for when I am on the road for a week or so grass tries to grow around my mill site.  I have tried "Simple Green" and other such cleaners but they did no better then dishsoap and pineoil.  I use rubbing alchol to clean the cedar sap off my hands and have thought of using a bottle in the water to see if it works as well as washer fluid.  But water will work.
ARKANSAWYER
ARKANSAWYER

Bibbyman

If we use anything, most often it's just straight water.  Most of our sawing is oak and other hardwoods so we don't have a pine sap problem.  When we mix anything, it's dish soap or pinesoll.  In the winter we mix in some windshield washer fluid.

I'd be real leery about using any flammable fluids.  Especially when sawing in a stationary location where you are blowing the sawdust and such.  
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

Mark M

I did a little more research into the Bio-diesel as a blade lubricant and looked up some MSDS sheets on various common solutions being used. I've listed in the order related to hazard (my opinion), with Dish-washing Soap being the safest. The recipe Arky gives looks pretty good. I would use as little additional chemicals (soap, cleaners, etc) as possible as everything has to go someplace and I don't know the bio-degradation pathways for these chemicals. Using water like Bibbyman would be the best choice if it will work for your application.

Steve I think the washer fluid would be a lot better for the environment than diesel fuel, the biggest issue is if someone drinks it. It looks and smells pretty good compared to diesel fuel so a child might take a swig (especially if you store it in a gallon crockery jug like Arky). I don't know if it has an embittering agent to make it taste bad or not.

Percy as for the Silicon spray, I don't think there would be a problem using an occasional shot. There are some nasty chemicals in most of these sprays but using a little shouldn't hurt.

Bibby brings up a good point about the use of flammable liquids around sawdust. That is one advantage of using the Bio-Diesel is the flash point is around 300F as compared to standard diesel which is about 100-125F. Still a mixture of this stuff and sawdust would be pretty flammable so it would be a good idea to have some means of extinguishing fire handy.

As far as using diesel fuel and the environment goes the biggest concern is usually ground water contamination. A little diesel goes a long ways towards screwing things up. Sawdust does a good job of absorbing diesel fuel so as long as you clean it up pretty often (I would burn it if you can) then there shouldn't be much trouble. You could always out down some plastic to protect the ground.

The toxicological/environmental data on bio-diesel looks a lot better than straight diesel fuel. The first link below gives a summary. It would be interesting to give this stuff a try to see how it works.

Mark


Some DanG good Reasons


MSDS - Kerosene

MSDS - No. 2 Diesel

MSDS - Windshield Washer Fluid

MSDS - Pine-Sol

MSDS - Dawn Dishwashing Soap

Ah Heck! Here is the whole DanG Index



Whoops I almost forgot - here is a site with some info on creosote Creosote. The bad thing about this stuff is it is a complex mixture of some pretty nasty stuff and some of the constituents cause cancer and other problems.

As for diesel fuel, it will bio-degrade over time. I don't know how long it takes but generally chemicals like this are broken down aerobically by soil microbes so increasing the amount of air helps accelerate the process. I don't know to what extent this happens in a sawdust pile since there isn't a lot of nutrients present. When compositing sawdust you usually need to add nitrogen and lots of air. I think it would be best if you could scrape up the sawdust and not depend bio-degradation.

Danny_S

I was just thinking about using the washerfluid with teflon in it..would maybe leave a wax-like film on the blade and the pitch wouldnt stick to it?  I know it works good on a windsheild. Maybe someone could try it for a lube. Just a thought.

Oh, here is another interesting biodeisel link   http://www.dancingrabbit.org/energy/biodiesel.html
Plasma cutting at Craig Manufacturing

biziedizie

Thanks Mark. :)  I printed your advice off and put it in what I call "My sawmill binder" All the good advice that I read here I print and put it in a binder and it comes in handy at times.

    Steve

Bibbyman

You know what would be even better ....???  If Mark would summarize all this stuff in put it in the Knowledge Base under the "Milling - Bandmills" topic.  Then it would be in a real good "binder" for everyone.

Could you? Would you?
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

Mark M

Hi Bibby

I would be glad to do that (I haven't forgot about the story of my sawmill kit). Is there anything special I need to know or do?

Mark

Bibbyman

Nah,  It's pretty simple.  A little too simple in there is no way to edit what you have posted once you have posted it.  

It will take HTML code so you can post your links to MSDS, etc.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

EZ

Hi Guys, while reading threw these post, I was thinking about the chemicals that I use, bubble bath, pinesol, windsheild fuild. So I thought I guess its time for me to think about the environment, so I decided for the summer months I wood use just straight water.
But now I have second thoughts, cause on the way to work this morning, I see the state put new gravel along the edge of the road and then spread oil on top of it. :( And now it's raining cats and dogs.
EZ

ohsoloco

I also simply use water with a little dish soap in it (windshield washer fluid in the winter).  I have been using a few ounces of simple green in my water lately, because I know it does such a great job of dissolving the pitch that builds up on my woodworking tools....I pour out enough in a pan to cover my table saw blade, etc. and let it soak for a while, that stuff just falls right off...plus, I can reuse the cleaner.  The bottle says it's non-toxic and biodegradeable, so I thought I would give it a try.  Keeps the sawmill blades nice and clean  :)

ElectricAl

Percy, Mark,   members, visitors, and FF staff,

We use a soybean oil when straight water won't   "cut it" ;).

We have a local grain elevator only 8 miles away from us that produces soy oil products. Not Bio-Diesel.  ::)
The product we use is Soy Form Away. It is used as a concrete release agent. We have used it on our concrete forms. Then tried it on the saw. It works pretty good. Right now we are sawing Ash, and Ash gums up the blade and leaves a deposit on the sides and back of the tooth with straight water. We add 6-10 oz. of soy oil to the water tank and increase the flow some. It makes a nice slick blade.

Soy Form Away contains Water, Soy Oil, Surfactant. A surfactant is a soap like stuff. Maybe Mark can enlighten us on "surfactant"

Anyway we get it in 5gal buckets. If you can't find soy oil in your area, that would not surprise me any. We are in the heart of soy bean country.
Our supplier is:
Natural Soy Products, 319-227-7418 ask for Bill (owner)

We have not tried the Soy Form Away straight, but it may work trickled onto the blade or dialed down on the LubeMizer.

It's worth a try.


ElectricAl
Linda and I custom saw NHLA Grade Lumber, do retail sales, and provide Kiln Services full time.

sawyerkirk

I run straight vegetable oil, the cheaper the better. It is relatively non toxic or flamable cleans the blade very well. I don't know how it will work on the lubemizer. We use a gallon every 3000bf or so.

BBTom

I use a little Pine-sol, a touch of Murpheys and a cup of Anchorseal in a five gallon batch.  It very well could be my imagination, ( I have been told that I have a great imagination)  :-/, but I think that the wax makes the blade slicker, and that keeps the gunk from sticking.  
2001 LT40HDD42RA with lubemizer, debarker, laser, accuset. Retired, but building a new shop and home in Missouri.

Furby

Hey EZ,
 Was that oil or salt brine they put on the road? They use salt brine around here, man is it bad on metal! :o

Fla._Deadheader

I tried Pine-sol today. Mixed it 50-50 with Dawn Dish soap and gave a good squirt in the 3 gallon lube jug. Had a black slimy build-up on the blade all day. Kept diluting with water and FINALLY got it working better. DON'T USE TOO MUCH PINE-SOL !! ::) ??? :o :(
All truth passes through three stages:
   First, it is ridiculed;
   Second, it is violently opposed; and
   Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

EZ

Furby, they mix tar and oil together, they use alot on this back road I live on. Thats one of the reasons I bought a black truck, coarse my wife has'nt learned that yet. ;D
EZ

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