iDRY Vacuum Kilns

Sponsors:

Thinning spruce-merge/Horselogging in a spruce plantation

Started by Rick Alger, January 26, 2007, 08:32:42 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Rick Alger



I'd appreciate suggested reading or tech info on spacing,  live crown ratios, etc for spruce thinning.

I'm currently doing a 25% pre-commercial thinning of a spruce plantation. The lot has been untouched for 40 years. It's a mix of White and Norway spruce. Some of the trees are seventy feet tall, others, even in more-or-less open areas, are only twenty. The yield has been roughly 1mbf and 7 tons biomass per acre. Most kibitzers think we haven't cut enough.

The forester is open to suggestion, so we might be able to alter the plan as we wrap the job up. . At the least I'd like to learn from the experience.

SwampDonkey

Sounds much like conditions for what is called semi-commercial thinning. You want to leave the more dominant trees and space the tight grown ones, leaving ones with healthier crowns as they will be more wind firm. The open grown ones should be left to help close in the canopy and seed-in, as they are usually heavy seed producers, and most are too limby to be of commercial value. Cut them later when the regen is established and still small, they take up a lot of growing space. They are also wind firm. I believe a target basal area for spruce is in the vicinity of 16 m2/ha (70 ft2/acre). Got a prism ??? , it's faster than measuring plot boundaries. Remember, at this stage your trying to promote the production of your best, even though some less desirable trees are left for 'protection' of the stand, out of necessity. 30-50 % crown ratio is ideal, limbs to the ground are obviously no good. Crown closure of 60 -70 % is a good rule, this is subjective as it's an ocular estimate when looking up at the canopy. If you find you have groups of tall wood, like the 70 foot ones, I'd leave more like 20 m2/ha (85 ft2/acre). If your into pockets of stuff up to 30 feet, space them 7 feet apart, even up to 8. As they don't stump sucker, and the canopy closes in pretty quick. Usually self pruning isn't to far along yet. And don't limb the standing trees unless they are dead limbs, just inviting stem rot. Then make sure you do not cut into the bark or the swells at the base of the branches. If there are pockets/groups of some really rough trees, just cut them and skid up the bare ground some to promote germination, if it was a good seed year last year. Got bare ground now, no snow?


Often the tendency is to to take the dominants, leaving the runts (suppressed, flat topped, or less than 1/3 crown, skin poles), week and poor formed trees. Doesn't leave much for a future crop.  ::)

Hope this helps.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Rick Alger

Thanks, This helps a lot. I don't have a prism, but I'm sure the forester does. It sounds like we may be doing better than the kibitzers think. The crown closure looks about right.

It is a semi-commercial job in that I have to generate my income from what I pull out. But I get  rates a lot more favorable than the norm for commercial cuts.

We started out with a mechanical thinning  pattern of taking every fourth row, but with the uneven growth in the stand, that plan  wasn't doing the job. With the horses I'm able to weave around fairly well to get what ought to come out without scarring up the leave trees.

I have been limbing too close to the stems, but that will stop.

It was an excellent cone year, but we do have snow here in Milan, NH. Maybe I'll go back in mud seaon and drag a top around.

Anyway, thanks again.

Stay warm,

Rick



Riles

SD, why do you worry about regeneration in an even age plantation? What's the typical rotation age for a spruce plantation in the great white north?
Knowledge is good -- Faber College

SwampDonkey

Spruce plantations are 80 year rotations here, but they live much longer. And the planted sites are usually the best.  But, you can't just plant the trees and walk away for 80 years. Thinning once and walking away doesn't work either. Why worry about regen? The simple answer is they will be years ahead of planted trees and costs less to manage. Spruce seeds well and can regenerate well if ground conditions are right. And it's better to shoot for uneven aged in the long term as it allows multiple entries and not one fail swoop with a clearcut, then have to wait another 80 years. Also, more volume per acre can be harvested in the  same period of time with selection in uneven aged stands. The down side is cost to harvest is more, but the trade off of having being able to cut wood more than once in your life I think is more satisfying.  ;D

Some sections of my plantations have a 5 year gap between planted spruce and natural spruce, not really uneven aged. Since, we usually group ages in 20 year classes. I would have liked a 20 year spread, but mother nature does her thing. I don't know where the seed came from, but it just blows the theory that natural seed of commercial trees isn't viable for long laying on the ground. We know that many shrubs seed are viable for decades. I could say the same thing about white ash, because the mature one's were cut 25 years ago, yet I have white ash everywhere growing and under 30 feet tall, and as short as 1 foot. ;D

cheers
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Riles

Well it certainly makes sense to switch to uneven aged management when you're on an 80 year rotation, but can you do it in rows? Spruce must be more tolerant than pine.
Knowledge is good -- Faber College

SwampDonkey

Obviously, they aren't going to regenerate in rows.....well kind of, maybe actually, in your skid paths of previous harvests. If I were thinning in plantations, every 3 or 4th row would be sacrificed in the first thinning and cut trees in adjacent rows would be directionally felled in hearing bone style to the extraction trails. Spruce are fairly tolerant, red spruce is real tolerant and will respond well from release of long periods of suppression. Most spruce do require an opening to establish (except red spruce). And where they will be regenerating is in the cut patches as well as the paths. Balsam fir is also very tolerant and is abundant up here, but not as long lived as spruce. However, fir tends to get stem rot under long suppression periods. White spruce will grow prolifically on alder,birch, poplar ground if there is a good seed source and bare ground and some help from leaf beetles. Should see the stuff on soiled gravel pit mounds. But, that's deviating from the thread a bit. ;D On better sites, white spruce is one of few spruces that will develop a tap root. Apparently, Norway spruce seed is not viable for long in the soil and the seed germinates quickly.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

SwampDonkey

White spruce natural regen in various stages and circumstances. Mostly in areas of old pasture and road sides or in old ground skid paths. Some in between planted rows where the ground was disturbed to expose soil.





















"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

tonich

Also – if you’re intended to switch to uneven aged management:
Do not force the stand to uniform! Try to break up the density/canopy with gaps, as wide as half stand height (or even a bit more). It is well know, that Nordic spruce is best regenerated in groups, into gaps (naturally after wind/snowfalls) with side shade, good humidity and enough heat (2-3 hours daily) in summer. Within the certain gap, you could leave only trees of small dimensions, but with good potential, to create favorable conditions for the seedlings. 1-2 gaps per hectare should do the job. The next time, you enter for cutting do not extend the current gaps, but create new ones. Also, do thinning between the gaps, as SD already described.


PS. Ability for developing a tap root by the White spruce is a good piece of new for the Spruce family. Thanks for heads up, SwampDonkey!  :) ;) ;D

Rick Alger

Tonich,

Thanks for the input. Openings are also a positive for me as a logger because I can cut a bit more in one spot and so have a more productive day.

I recently read that Norway Spruce get very big in Europe- up to 50 meters. Have you seen any like this?

Rick


tonich

No Rick, I haven’t!
The tallest tree I my region, I know about is as much as 38 meters, at 160 years of age.
Norway Spruce plantations are 100 or 120 year rotations here, depending on site capacity. This the approximate age for both: economic and regeneration maturity, when is worth rotating. Usually they reach about 30 meters of height and about 0.5 meters of diameter at 120 years of age.

When opening a gap, you should consider one of the following:
1.   Regeneration:
Established group of undergrowth under mature stand. This is always a good point to start from, to ensure future natural subsequent reproduction.
2.   Harvesting:
A dense group of big trees, growing together. The competition for growing space, results to undeveloped crowns and flat horizontal roots. Thus, trained to survive in group they have very high group firmness, but low individual one. So thinning within such groups is not a good decision. Moreover, it is economically reasonable to remove the whole group.

SwampDonkey

Also, those white spruce that have bark like large fish scales are sick and week ones. Cut'm, but you'll end up bucking some to get to firm wood.  ;D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Rick Alger

Thanks , Tonich and Swamp Donkey.

I'm in the last section of the plantation now. The trees are all fairly tall and mostly healthy. I don't think large openings would be appropriate here.

The scales on the bark does work for selection. The canopy is so tight it's hard to tell sometimes which tree is more vigorous, and other times it's just nice to have a reason to say this tree goes instead of that one. A couple scaly ones had what looked like blue stain on the butt others had butt rot.

Thanks again,

Rick


tonich

You’re SO welcome!

My input was conserving switch from even to uneven aged management.
I didn’t mentioned about “large openings”.

Good luck!  :)

sprucebunny

I visited a new member from up in my neck of the woods, Rick Alger.

He is doing a 25% thinning in a spruce plantation that was planted in 1964.

Here's a few pics and hopefully, he will drop in and answer any questions that you have.

Turning a cornor between rows




Cart hitched up to some trees that are cut but not down.


Rick took me on a ride to the finished area ;D
MS193, MS192 and an 026  Weeding and Thinning. Gilbert Champion sawmill

Coon

Sweet pics bunny.  How many acres is he thinning with horses?  How many teams is he running?  Hope he shows up here.  Another horse logger is what we need here. 

Norwood Lumbermate 2000 w/Kohler,
Husqvarna, Stihl and, Jonsereds Saws

tonich

 :)
It would be great, if moderator could merge this thread with this one

PS. Now that I can see much of the stand. I wish, I have known at least age and origin at the start of the discussion.


EDIT: The link is fixed now!  8)

beenthere

Your link didn't work. Try doing a preview of the message, and modify if needed.
Good idea to add to previous horselogging threads.  :)
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

leweee

Sprucebunny....Thanks for posting those pics. 8)
Rick....thats a Great looking team, could you tell use a bit about them?
Love the two wheeled cart with the saw box on front. 8)
just another beaver with a chainsaw &  it's never so bad that it couldn't get worse.

SwampDonkey

Yeah, Toni and I have been offering a few tips for the last few days. ;D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

SwampDonkey

What's the basal area in there Rick? Use the thumb method. Stand at one point and turn 360 on one foot with arm fully extended and thumb up. Look at trees in line with the thumb (both eyes open), count # of trees which look wider than the width of your thumb. Multiply # trees by 2 for metric (m2/ha), or 8.7 (ft2/acre) for imperial.  ;D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

leweee

just another beaver with a chainsaw &  it's never so bad that it couldn't get worse.

SwampDonkey

"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Rick Alger

Yes, I've gotten some good advice from these gentlemen.

The lot is 15 acres. Some of it is nowhere near as growthy as what's pictured. Some of it is so poor that I'm not going to touch it.

The team is a light one -around 2500. The chestnut is a Suffolk with a bit of Belgian. The bay  is a grade Morgan that we originally bought as a saddle horse for the
grandchildren

I  work only this team, and I work alone. Worker's Compensation Insurance is required in NH and it makes it too costly to hire a helper.

I'll be wrapping this job up within a week or so, but I'll be glad to continue this discussion.

Rick

Tom

Rick,
You made a bad mistake if you thought you might end a discussion around here. :D :D

You might be talking about this one for years. 
More pictures.  We all like to see horses working.  I think everyone on the forum is jealous of you fellows that do this.  I sure wish y'all would start some threads about horses, horse handling, harness, skidding equipment, skidding, horse stories, feed, loads, hours and all those things that go along with your profession.  :)

Get conversation started that won't peter out in a week.   You have a lot of us looking over your shoulder even if we aren't saying anything.  :D

Thank You Sponsors!