Horse logging

[David_c]

i was on the net last night and came across some things about horse logging how it's more envronmentlly more freindly and how more home owners would rather horse logging than conventional. now my question is this how can you make any money doing this i'm sure you get the same price at the mill as say a guy that uses a skidder  but can only get as much wood out of the woods in a week as a man with skidder can in a day do you give less for stumpage? hows that work?

[Jeff]

Hopefully our Horse loggers will get on and answer, but I can think of several things right off the bat.

A pail of oats and a bale of hay versus, Skidder payment, fuel, oil, parts, insurance, heavy support equipment such as low boy and tractor to transport just to name a few.

[Tom]

Yeah, and the extract from the bottom of a silage  pit or silo as result of the fermentation of oats, etc makes a passable substitution for the high priced Hooch at the corner honky-tonk; if you are so inclined and need mind numbing chemicals to exacerbate public inebriation.

Huffing gas doesn't do anything but destroy your brain and other vital organs necessary for life.  Of course the natural chemicals will do you in eventually too, just a little slower.

So, Horses are healthier than Skidders too. :D

[DanG]

Yeah, and a horse-logging operation is usually a one or two man show. Not a lot of Worker Comp, Soc. Security and other extra taxes to pay on a big crew, not to mention the salaries.  One man with a good team of horses could make a pretty fair living skidding one or two truckloads per day, since he gets to keep the whole paycheck.

H'mmmm. Come to think of it, I got a pair of right stout hayburners in my pasture. Wonder what they would think of working for a living. ;D :D :D :D :D :D :D :-/

[Tillaway]

I would like to hear about current costs as well.  The last time I checked the price was comparable to Helicopter logging, real high in other words.

Horse logging has a niche for small harvests in sensative areas.  One thing to think about though is that a AVT with arch is probably just as productive although I don't know how big a log a team of horses can move.  Probably much bigger than the ATV.

[David_c]

Jeff B i kinda figuired that stuff too just to lazy to add it :D
DanG most of the loggers are one or two man operations also.
Tillaway are you saying that the horse loggers are getting the same money as hellicopters if so wow that definatly is good $.

[Jeff]

 I don't think that is what he is saying. What I would bet he is saying is that the cost of Harvest per unit of measure is similar.

[David_c]

thank Jeff that makes more sense.

[redpowerd]

ha! horse loggin and sniffin gas.
you need the gas to fell the tree, so thats a wash.
my father in law just bought two dumptrucks and two beautiful white workhorses for two k. pretty silly?
were gunna try these beasts in the hemlock hollow this next frost. theres some woods i dont want access trails on, and i figger the horses can just skid down the deer runs. all the trees are dropped and topped, so it should make for a quiet, peaceful day in the woods.

[David_c]

hey redpower let us know how that turns out.

[redpowerd]

i can only imagine, should be quite peaceful. send me a usb port and ill get some pics :D

[beenthere]

Anybody here spent a full day (that two logging-trucks worth of logs?) walking behind the team of horses (and beside the log) up and down hill, around the obstacles, getting the horses to not take the short cut down the crooked path to not slide that log past a good tree causing it to be barked on one side????  Or around the stump or big root to keep it from hanging up, or once it is hung up, getting it "un-hung" ??  Horse loggers are a special breed, IMO.    8)   8)

I haven't either (spent a whole day), but I have spent time behind a horse team and if you can do it and put up with the frustration, you are in some fantastic and fit condition (or will be if you last). Its (horses) not going to take over the logging industry, IMO. Too much hassle, and when it gets to the bottom line, just as damaging to the forest floor and fauna, when considering the multiple trips of the horse hooves to get the same volume of wood moved (IMO). And still need the big logs taken out some other way.

Again, don't mean to be negative, just another reality check, I think. I am also pleased to see someone else using horses. I am impressed with their dedication and hard work.

[hosslog]

Here are a couple of sites you might want to check out;
Firth Maple Products
Healing Harvest Forest Foundation
They both have similar philosophys about forestry and using horses.
I work for Firth's. He also has 3 other teams working on other pieces. He would like to find a couple more if anyone is interested:)

beenthere, In actual practice horses are much lighter on the soil,even with the extra trips there is less compaction .If we do skin atree it is usually down  on what will be the stump anyhow. I also use a log cart so that I do alot less walkin ;)

redpowerd,Good luck with the horses .I'm sure you will enjoy it.

Tillaway,"Price compared to helicopter logging ?" I wish!! The going rate around here for horses is 100$ cut and skid. Just a shade more than the skidders. Also the start up costs with horses are cheaper. A good team will be in the neighborhood of 3 to 4 thous. and  last 10 to 15 years. Will an atv last that long doing the same job?I've never owned one so have nothing to compare to. As far as big logs go it isn't to hard to hook another team in front to help out.

[Brian_Bailey]

beenthere,  
Your mention of the damage that the horses hooves do, brings back the memory of a post on another forum.  The poster, was comparing a large mechanical forwarder and the psi its tires impacted the ground with fully loaded to the small imprint of a horses hoove pulling a normal hitch. It definately didn't favor the horse.  Wish I could remember the numbers, they were a real eye opener.

Here is a link to an interesting site if horses are your thing, I think I posted it before.

www.farmerbrownsplowshop.bigstep.com  

[David_c]

Brian interesting site thanks.

[hosslog]

Brian, In actual practice the numbers don't prove out. Bigger tires just spread the compaction over a wider area. Just not as deep. Yeah I know I singin to the choir. :D

[Brian_Bailey]

hosslog,  

I'm supportive of using horses  8).  

The post I was referring to was made by an equipment mfg. rep. and was pretty convincing, it was the first time I had actually seen numbers from a study. I wish that I would of made a hard copy of the thread. It was unfortunately deleted by the forum people because it referred to a specific brand.  

[hosslog]

Brian, OK I was singin to the wrong choir :D. I have read some of those studies and I always come away with the feeling that the writers make their living selling ocean front lots in Idaho. ;D

[Norm]

I've worked around horses and skidders. To say that the horses do as much damage taking out the same amount of wood is BS. Most logging done with horses is done on relatively flat terrain. Getting hung on stumps happens with both, when logging with horses the stumps are cut low so this is not common. A good team is much smarter than most people give them credit for. They seem to know an easier pull is not made by wrapping the load around a tree. They are not for large tracts but will excell in smaller ones. Especially when it's not going to be logged by the big equipment cause the landowner won't let allow it. Yes it's hard work but so is using a bandmill instead of a big circular. Each has their place in forestry. There is no reason to diss one over the other.

[Tillaway]

Hosslog,
If you can cut and skid for $100 out here then you will have more work than you could ever handle.  Putting it on a truck here for less than $150 is difficult.  In fact $150 might get you to break even, the prices are pushing $175 to $200 right now.

Hand falling costs here are up to $50mbf curently.  The horse logger I knew ten years ago was getting $250 at the time and had plenty of work it seemed.  At that time tough cable logging was at $200 to $225 and Helicopter was right about $250.

[hosslog]

Tillaway, your talking per thousand bf, right? Last I heard the skidder guys around here were getting $200 per load(thats a triaxle) cut and skid. figure 3 to 4 thousand bf to a load.

[Tillaway]

Yeah thats per mbf.  You mean they are working for $50  a thousand (falling costs run between $20 and$50mbf here).  That will pay for the falling here but thats about it.  We get about 5000bf on a truck here average.  Trucking costs here alone hit close to $100 per thousand.  The current active plan we have going the trucking is real close to that.  One load a day is all the trucks can get hauling into Southern Oregon from down here.  They will have close to $300mbf into the logs getting them to the mill.  A big part of that plan is for helicopter and the costs just to get the logs on the truck will be $300mbf.  Horse logging here you would be lucky to get a load a day, long skids.

That current plan has three active landings and the contractor is using 3 skidders, 3 grapple cats, and 3 loaders.  On Saturday he has 10 cutters working.  They are cutting 40' logs and getting about two logs per tree.  Trees range in size from 10"DBH to 60"DBH or so.  The average is between 20" and 30"DBH.  

[hosslog]

Tillaway, My son wants to know if you need a cutter. ;D He cuts for me.

[Tillaway]

Sure, the going rate for a cutter here is 42.50 per hour.  You supply everything including jacks.  You have to put down 15 to 20mbf per day average.  You have to fall directional, we have lots of areas were a liberal use of a jacks is the only way.

As a contractor you will need to carry at least 2 million in liability insurance.  Workman comp rates now are $84 per hundred in wages paid for logging.  You also have to be a licensed timber operator.  Still interested?

The  quote on a small logging  job we have is $225mbf to get the logs to the mill.  About $30mbf of that goes to trucking.

[Ed_K]

 Tillaway, the workers comp shocked me . I'm paying 18 per 100. Yowzer  .
 I just finished a small job skidding out 2500 bf for a land owner to build a small barn. Using the tractor & winch, working the low impact. It cost $215. per mbf. Now hes going to pay .22 a ft to get it saw in his yard.
 Usually I cut and skid for $120. mbf using the taylor skidder.
 Ed K