Get your reading glasses on..

4x4American · July 26, 2015, 07:03:46 PM

So this past week I moved to a job that well, didn't go great. It didn't go bad, but it didn't go great. Showed up right when I said I would at 7:30am to a decent sized farm. I confused the heck outta the workers, they had no idea where I was supposed to set up, where the boss was, where the logs were, etc. So finally the boss shows up at like 9:30, and brings me on some UTV's down back on a roughed in road to a mess of a clearing job and asks if I can set up here. The site was poorly graded, and had many random holes where the dozer man popped stumps out but didn't grade it off. Still little saplings laid over on the ground to trip over, roots stuck in the ground, etc. Not easy terrain by any stretch of the imagination. The day before, the site where I was supposed to be sawing was woods with heavy brush and I guess a father and son crew came in and cut + dozed the site.

Anyways, after falling into one stump hole with the mill and one with the truck I got it to a decent spot I could live with and got to setting up. The mill kept sinking in the freshly broke ground and at one point went from the level bubble maxed out on the rail side of the mill to maxxed out on the loader side of the mill. I got out my shovel and dug down to virgin dirt. (Note: always have a digging shovel handy on portable jobs) Anyways, got set up and had to wait for the guy to show up with the skid steer. Once the skid steer got there the guy just wanted to shoot the bull and had to get him to shift gears towards work. We sort of got a setup that worked going but it wasn't efficient. I had to stage the logs...err..turn the trees into logs and trim the branches. I had explained this all to the boss over the phone before I came that I need logs not trees. He said that his old man ran a WM sawmill and had a decent idea how it all worked. So I relaxed, figuring that I didn't have to explain any more to him. My assigned helper was a good guy but, man, he kept trying to talk to me over the mill instead of work. Anyways, the guys on the clearing team were supposed to be there at noon to bring me more logs. They didn't show til 2pm. And then they commenced to bring me trees. That looked like this

Nothing straight, or close to it, and full of knots, often big ones. They just pretty much were pushing the tree over, cutting off the root ball and crown, bs job limbing, and dumping them by my mill. Too close to the mill. So I pushed through day one. Said that I was working by the hour. And I didn't hardly get much lumber sawed. Then it started downpouring at 3:30 or so and I took off. So not much got accomplished in terms of sawing lumber, but I worked my tail off. Day two, the help was supposed to be there at 8am. I got there at 7:30 and no one was around, no logs were there by the mill like they said would be, just trees, and half of them were firewood/pulpwood. So I got the mill fueled and watered and ATF'd waiting for my help. The bossman came down and said that I could use the skid steer, have at it. I told him that they need to buck the logs out of the tree and keep them out of the clay if he could. He said he'd bring me a psi washer. Great, but I want to be sawing, not washing logs. So I sawed one log that I had put on the mill the day before when it started raining. Then got on the skidsteer and started bucking trees into logs. After a few hours the boss came down with a PSI washer and water tank, and I commenced to buck, wash, and stage logs. Out of all the twisted logs they brought me I only got maybe 7 or 8 logs out of the trees that were at the landing. I started sawing after lunch, and finally help arrived. They brought me a good worker this time, except he didn't bring anything to drink. Smart guy, but come on man you're 53 years old don't ya know to bring some water with you when you go to work especially in late July! I found him an old water bottle kicking around in my truck and he was happier than a hog in manure. He was a good guy, good worker. I walked him through the process, then put on a log and explained everything to him as I went. He picked up fast and anticipated the next move each time. He was a big step up from the guy yesterday. So we worked for awhile, and sawed all the logs there were, and the clearing guys brought me some other junky logs, one of which had so much rot and stain from nails I didn't touch it and he took it for firewood. It was an old hickory tree on the corner of a field with barb wire most likely wrapped up in it. I don't know if I could have got one board out of it without hitting steel. The guy there has a butchers shop and smokes alot of meat so he was more than happy to have a hickory log for smoking wood.
Anyways, the track broke off the dozer and the trees stopped falling and work stopped around 5pm. I packed up, tucked in the mill and took off. I spoke with the boss he said his father (who had run the WM mill) is coming by this wednesday and is going to get the trees on the ground and turned into logs that are clean for sawing. I was going to go back on thursday, but now I'm thinking I'm gonna draw the mill home and go to a different job on friday and let these guys get things figured out. All of the workers at the farm were telling me about how screwed up the farm operates.

So here's my question: how would you figure it for what I oughta get? On my pricelist it explains about how I go by the hourly rate when I'm going by myself or doing things that I normally wouldn't. And that price is $50/hour. Which is high for what I was doing, but he was supposed to have it all done, before I got there. I though we were clear on this but I guess we weren't. He isn't hurting for money. He's clearcutting some hardwood stands into fields for crops and building two 120' barns, and wants to use as much wood off his property as he can. I think that once we get rolling, this could be a cream job. Once we get on the same page and all. So I don't want to scare him off with a high price, even though that's what I oughta get, I feel. I didn't get much lumber sawed. I have a record of everything I sawed, I'll add it up later on and see how much bf I sawed. Mainly all hard maple, then some hickory, and some basswood. It was less than optimal conditions. But I did have fun, and I did sleep well each night. Very well. Whadaya think? I was thinking maybe to have a special log prep price. I was using his skidsteer and my chainsaw. I also noticed something that was wrong in the undercarriage that could end up being very costly in the near future if he doesn't take care of it. I pointed it out and he was appreciative.

tmarch · July 26, 2015, 07:21:03 PM

If your price is $50 an hour I'd stay with the price, but maybe adjust the hours a little, just be sure to tell him how many hours you take off and why. Easier to show him how to do it cheaper and still keep your rate.

Bruno of NH · July 26, 2015, 07:30:26 PM

I would watch this guy !
He's going to want you to do all this stuff for your sawing price .
He thinks he has you because it can be a good job.
Don't buy into it I've had jobs like this never work out .
Bruno

4x4American · July 26, 2015, 07:36:54 PM

Thanks guys. Yea he also wants me to take a can of spray paint and go mark all the trees I want to saw. I'm thinking once I figure out a price, I'll go get my mill and my pay this week, and then go do other jobs and when this guy is ready, go back without the mill first and look at it. I really don't mind doing all that other work, especially at $50/hr. I can do it much better than they can, and I do it frequently at my other job for far less pay. I don't mind working, I like to work, but I want to get paid for it, and I want to be fair to the customer and myself. If he's willing to pay, I'm willing to play.

Delawhere Jack · July 26, 2015, 07:43:03 PM

Some clients "get it", and some don't. It might be worthwhile getting together with the client and one or two of his "lead guys" on site and invest 30 minutes to an hour of your time going over what you need from them to make it worthwhile.

I hate inefficiency. Not just because it's a waste of my time, but because those clients are the ones who will run their mouths about what a crappy job YOU did for THEM.

Talk with the client, and let him know what needs to happen so that you can give him good value for his money.

If things don't improve, bail.

Delawhere Jack · July 26, 2015, 07:51:46 PM

Heed Bruno's warning to. Don't let this guy get into you for a weeks work without getting paid.

I've been very lucky so far not getting roped in by a deadbeat, but what you describe has my deadbeat radar beebing.

beenthere · July 26, 2015, 07:56:01 PM

Stick with your $50 per hour for all the time you were there and ready to work.. not your fault the site wasn't ready, the help wasn't there, and the logs were not there to saw.

4x4American · July 26, 2015, 08:08:37 PM

Thanks, guys. I am going to give him my bill and an explanation of who, what, where, when, why, and how. The guy doesn't seem to like to take much time to talk or really do anything as he's orchestrating 500 projects and not much is happening anywhere. Which leads me to my next thing I didn't mention, when we were talking on the phone before I went down there, I started to tell him what I charge and he didn't seem to care at all and he shut me up before I got a sentence out. I did hand him a lumber pricelist I have made up and it has all my portable sawing charges explained below.

The farm is beautiful. Up on a ridge with a nice view. He has a handful of full time employees on the farm. Lots of chickens (meat birds and layers), beefers, hogs, dogs, etc. There is also a farm to table restaurant there that gets great reviews, I've never ate there. The way he found me was I was working down the road last year and his employee who's one of the carpenters there saw me and got my card.

4x4American · July 26, 2015, 08:13:27 PM

Quote from: beenthere on July 26, 2015, 07:56:01 PM
Stick with your $50 per hour for all the time you were there and ready to work.. not your fault the site wasn't ready, the help wasn't there, and the logs were not there to saw.

So what do you think about the part where I got there the first day at 7:30am and no sawdust flew until 11am? I have my mileage and setup fee, but I don't think that covers it. I didn't even know where I was going to setup til 10. The setup did take long than usual, but that was because I had to back down this roughed in road and fiddle fart around for awhile between digging to virgin dirt, and driving into stump holes I couldn't see. Do I count the first few hours off as part of my setup, or do I figure what it normally would have taken to setup and then subtract that from my hours and charge the rest as my hourly rate? I think the latter.

YellowHammer · July 26, 2015, 08:25:31 PM

You were on time, he was not, nor was he ready for your arrival. He needs to pay. Also, I would not do another thing until I saw the money in my hand, as billed, paid in full. Be fair on the charges, but don't be taken advantage of.

Bruno of NH · July 26, 2015, 08:36:18 PM

Just because the place is big and beautiful don't think that's why you will get paid .
I looked at a job once the guy told me he was a Rockafela .
I didn't like the vibe , he ended up kidnapping his child and ended up being a serial killer .
They made a movie about him
Bruno

4x4American · July 26, 2015, 08:44:40 PM

You guys are right. I am going to get the mill this week and give him the bill. I will explain why it costed so much for not so much lumber. I will tell him what needs to be done in order for me to come back, explain it the best way that I can, to him and his lead worker, and tell him to call me when he's ready. His farm is not too far away from a big job we are doing with the construction/excavation company so I can stop in easily in a company truck to take a look on my way home.

WV Sawmiller · July 26, 2015, 08:50:59 PM

Did you say or do anything to mislead the guy about what his requirements were as to being ready for you to come mill?

If not, I'd bill for the full time I was there. Tell him he can get lot better value in the future if he waits till the logs and landing are ready and help is available before he calls you to return.

Where possible I like to do a site visit ahead of time. If nothing else you could ask the customer to send you a picture of the logs and landing and explain a pick up truck needs to be able to access the road with ease for you to bring your mill.

Peter Drouin · July 26, 2015, 09:01:18 PM

When I got to a job like that I would tell the guy, he's not ready for me and ask why.
I have seen guys like that before. How can they have all that money and be all messed up like that. Because they don't pay . I would have walked the first day.
I don't pull my $40,000 mill into the bush like that.
But that's just how I am.
Good luck 4x4

4x4American · July 26, 2015, 09:03:26 PM

I thought I was crystal clear over the phone when I said that I need the trees bucked into log length, limbs cut flush, free of mud/dirt, and stacked in a neat manner. He seemed to understand, and he told me about how his father ran a WMZ mill for a long time and how he grew up in the country

I would have visited the site first but I was working a different job in the complete opposite direction and he's 45 min drive from home. I honestly thought he understood what I meant the way he talked over the phone. After awhile he told me that he never really got involved with his fathers mill and really has no idea how the whole portable sawmill operation works :D completely different from how he sounded over the phone. Pictures of the site I guess would have deterred me, as the day before it was thick woods and the guy dozed it by the lights on the dozer the night before I came.

(and believe me, you could tell he graded it at night :D )

4x4American · July 26, 2015, 09:08:02 PM

Should have seen the look on my face when he said that he was going to have the clearing guys drop the three shagbark hickorys that were within 20ft of my mill...I said NO WAY SIR! Don't be touching any trees that are within 300ft of my mill!

Peter Drouin · July 26, 2015, 09:48:34 PM

For me, A costomer lies to me out the gate and we are done.

beenthere · July 26, 2015, 10:15:01 PM

I say give him the bill.. no apologies on your part, no long explanation why you are thinking it is too high.

If he wants to negotiate the bill, then maybe knock an hour off. But he owes you the money. IMO.

But as you already have explained this guy, I don't think you will collect a dime from him. Could be wrong, but so far sounds like he huffs and puffs and bluffs his way through much of his help.. beings as how you explained different workers and such. You are just another one that he stands on top of. I'd move the mill, leave him the written bill, and show your hours and cost per hour and the total. Then skidaddle.

If he is not what I think, then he will be changing his tune and helping you help him get his logs sawn into lumber.. which I assume he wants in some form and has given you a cutting list to shoot for (that you didn't mention).

4x4American · July 26, 2015, 10:18:03 PM

I think that he just bit off more than he could chew by rushing into it so fast and didn't really see or think things through. I don't think that he lied, I just think that he honestly didn't know any better. I had to explain the word buck to him, as in bucking logs. Plus the guys he has doing the clearing are just not in the clearing business. The guy running the chainsaw is a desk job worker/firewood guy who is getting paid in wood scraps. I do see some potential in this job. Some things need to be changed and addressed, and I can see it going much smoother. But for now, the hourly price tag does look kinda steep and I think I am going to be nice about it and cut him some slack where I can. I don't need to burn this bridge, as it could lead to getting a bad reputation, which is never good. I am going to see it through and by God we're gonna saw some lumber and get his barns built before winter! 8)

beenthere · July 26, 2015, 10:23:10 PM

Don't kid yourself. You deserve better. IMO

If someone tells me $50 an hour, and I take him up on it, then he comes back around and cuts that price... I wonder why the higher price in the beginning. Makes me a bit suspicious.
But it is your business.. and wish you the best.

4x4American · July 26, 2015, 10:26:48 PM

BT- Yes he did give me a cut list to shoot for. He is building two 130' hog barns, before winter he hopes. He has two "master carpenters" that are working for him full time, leading the charge. One of the barns is up and semi functional, but he needs to create pens/stalls/whatever inside. That is why he is in a rush right now for me to saw him out the pen making material. After that, he wants me to saw him out as much material from his property as possible. He also offered for me to saw him the material at home, and he'd leave me a trailer to fill up and he'd pick up/pay as necessary. But I don't have the setup yet to do that, or I would rather have done it that way. He is also building many chicken coops and fences for his cattle. He claims to go through alot of rough sawn lumber and says he can keep me busy in the future. Again, I don't need to burn this bridge.

Magicman · July 26, 2015, 10:36:08 PM

If you do decide to negotiate a bit reduce the hour(s), but I would not reduce the hourly rate. I have read where some sawyers do have different hourly rates; one for actually sawing when the mill is running and another lesser rate when doing chainsaw, etc. work. Personally, I use one rate because it encourages the customer to keep me sawing. I am a professional, not a hired saw hand.

YellowHammer · July 26, 2015, 10:42:23 PM

I think in this case the old saying "money talks BS walks" would be my philosophy. Ask him to pay what he owes, have him even thing up. Then you'll get an idea if you want to do more work for him.

4x4American · July 26, 2015, 10:42:36 PM

Quote from: Magicman on July 26, 2015, 10:36:08 PM
If you do decide to negotiate a bit reduce the hour(s), but I would not reduce the hourly rate. I have read where some sawyers do have different hourly rates; one for actually sawing when the mill is running and another lesser rate when doing chainsaw, etc. work. Personally, I use one rate because it encourages the customer to keep me sawing. I am a professional, not a hired saw hand.

I was thinking I might just take an hour or so off as a gesture of goodwill. That is a good point. I am here with an expensive machine, I'm here to run it, not to look at it in my peripheral vision while sorting/stacking/trimming/bucking/cleaning logs. You don't bring a plumber into your house and ask him to clean up the dog dung on your floor and paint the ceiling before he starts sweating pipe.

deadfall · July 26, 2015, 11:13:12 PM

Quote from: 4x4American on July 26, 2015, 10:42:36 PMYou don't bring a plumber into your house and ask him to clean up the dog dung on your floor and paint the ceiling before he starts sweating pipe.

Once upon a time I was a bricklayer. Before that, I was a hod carrier. The hod carrier's duty was to keep the bricklayer always laying brick. (In my case, it was usually two bricklayers.) There had to be mortar on their boards and a brick or block at arm's length. (Not too hard, until you get up on scaffold.)

If it's clear the employer has hired a sawyer, and a sawyer only, then he should be keeping you sawing.