question on size of brace

[laffs]

i know that most braces talked about are 4"x6" but if your useing oversized timbers would you use oversized braces? or is it a personal prefference? i  dont remember ever seeing oversized braces in any of the barns ive been in.
Brent

[Dave Shepard]

I am currently working on two Dutch barn restorations. On the first, the gable braces are oak, and about 4"x5.5". The posts are about 11"x13" and the anchorbeam is 11"x17.5". In the interior bents, the purlin posts are 11"x13" and the anchors are 11"x21.5", with white pine braces that are 6" deep and 11" wide. The purlin post to purlin plate braces are oak 4"x5.5" I think the big braces are pretty exclusive to Dutch barns. I'll upload some photos.

[Dave Shepard]

I don't have great photos to show the different braces, these are all I have on the computer.

This photo shows the gable assembly of the first Dutch barn with the "normal" sized oak braces.



This is the second barn showing the huge white pine braces. They are the same cross section as the posts. Both of these barns are primarily white pine, which is typical for New York State Dutch barns.

[Jim_Rogers]

" but if your using oversized timbers would you use oversized braces?

What size are your oversized timbers?

[laffs]

jim i havent done anything with oversized timbers yet. i do plan to use some in the future. most times i have a log on the mill that i can turn into a large timber like 12x12 or 16x16 i know its overkill for smaller structures.  just thought it would be a good conversation piece. but i did wonder about the size of brace, does the size of timber dictate the size of brace?or would it be more decorative?
Brent

[Jim_Rogers]

As Dave has mentioned, you usually only see large braces when you see large timbers such as in Dutch style barns.
In 05, a friend took me on a tour of a large Dutch barn just over the border from where Dave lives in NY state. Just a little south of Albany, NY.

Here are some photos of that barn:





Inside is a very large anchor beam to hold up the hay loft area:



As you can see by the size of the man standing there, that brace is very large.

But the anchor beam is very large as well:



Above the anchor beam and all around the barn there were regular size braces as I remember it:



There are a few more pictures of this barn in my Gallery, like for Wemp barn photos.

So, as mentioned usually only large braces are used when you are using large timbers that will span a long or wide floor. And carry a heavy load.

From anchor beam to anchor beam in Dutch barns would be laid poles, small trees not sawn square, just round poles, fairly close together to stack the hay on to store and dry.

You can make any size braces you want, so that your frame "looks" right if you wish.

The purpose of a brace is to add stiffness to the frame, so that when the wind blows on the wall the barn will not fold up and fall over.

Braces work in compression, that is their strength.

Jim Rogers

[Dave Shepard]

You can also double up the braces, like the ones holding up this Samson beam.

[laffs]

thanks for the info. that was my next question Dave, if double braces were used.
I have a piece of property I'm gonna build on it to rent, I may use some large timbers on that.
I hear that Maine is changing some regulations on building with rough lumber that will be something else I'll have to look into. do you guys have to put up with that also?

[Dave Shepard]

I don't know if the double are historic or not. I think I've seen something like that, maybe at Great Coxwell? The barn in the picture is actually two barns, about 28x36 or so, that were joined together. One is early 1800's, the other maybe Civil War era. Both floor systems are new, designed by Jack Sobon. The other side has a lowered Samson beam supported in a similar way.

[laffs]

looks like 12x12 or bigger posts. who does stone work like that anymore, geez thats beautiful. I'd never be able to afford something like that
Brent

[Dave Shepard]

I don't know if they are quite 12x12 or not. I'll check, this barn is only about 6 miles from me and I stop in regularly. The foundation is veneered with stone inside and out. Most of it was done by a group of Newfies that came down for about 6 weeks. Jack is working on designing floor systems for our two barns and will be doing something similar to this. There will probably be three Samson beams supporting 40' floor timbers in one barn, and 45' in the other. One barn will have a similar veneering. The other I'm not sure about, but will probably have a marble veneer from our quarry.

[laffs]

at first I thought it was veneer and then I saw the pilasters and the blocks of granite laying around. even still theres a lot of work there.

[routestep]

I made 6 by 8 braces on 9 by 9 posts and 9 by 12 cross ties. They were heavy.

They were a bit more work because they were not bare faced, so both sides of the brace tenon had to be cut.

[frwinks]

My frame design was influenced by Dutch barns/joinery and I've worked a few Dutch tenons/massive beams into the frame.  I used some 8x8 hemlock braces with 3,4,5 layout to support 10x10 22' purlins.  The posts are 8x8 as well and I think there is a nice flow with this arrangement.


cutting them was fun, trying to hold them up 30' in the air while the crane operator takes his sweet time lowering the purlins..no so much :D


some natural cruck braces, these were 8-12" deep....and heavy

[Dave Shepard]

That is a very rugged looking frame.  8)

[Jim_Rogers]

One way to holding up a brace while lowering a timber by crane is by putting in the peg in the bottom tenon. But by using a very long tapered peg so that the tenon is loose in the mortise and the brace has some give to it so that the person just has to guide the upper tenon into it's mortise.

Another way to do it is to use a piece of rope around the brace and back to the post very high up on the brace nearly at the top. This prevents the brace from falling out when held in by the long tapered peg, mentioned above.

Both of these methods hold the bulk of the weight of a large brace while the frame is being assembled.

Just some things to consider for your raising plan.

Jim Rogers

[laffs]

thats a nice looking frame.
i  nailed boards on my braces to the plates. a lot of the work i did by myself. put my mcgiver skills to work. i  put a 32 foot top plate on 4 posts, shimmed it with 2xs and boards then slid it over the tenons and like jenga went along and knocked out the 2xs and boards. worse part was sliding it out over the tenons.