Is this Douglas fir?

[Draco]

I was told that this is Douglas fir, but I'd like to know for sure, or get it right.


 
Bark (I hope)


 
Branch


 

I hope to harvest them for a cabin and I should really know what it's made of. :-[

Thanks in advance.

Mark

[beenthere]

What more can you tell us? How about the cones? Do they have forked brackets coming out of the cone?

Is this a planted plantation believed to be D. fir ?

What is the history of the plantation?

[Draco]

I purchased 12 acres of mixed (mostly smaller) hardwoods and conifers, several years ago.  The land is in northwest Michigan, where the soil is primarily sand.  I found old barbed wire grown into some of the trees along the lot line, so I assume it had been used for grazing something years ago. 

The primary conifer is a stand of Scots pine that appears to have been planted for soil erosion control.  These large trees border the Scots and there are two huge Beech in with them.  It almost looks like when they logged off this part of the state they left some small trees in a clearing, or along a line, and that's what I am seeing that are big now.  The Scots have a few small maples and poplar mixed in.  They are old and breaking off tops in storms.  Most need to be removed and milled and I will need the lumber.  There is also hundreds of knee to waist high Beech covering the floor, under the Scots.  All of this is bordered by the continued Scots on the neighbor's land to the east and south.  Mostly maples and poplar to the west and north, with a few small conifers mixed in.


 

As far as the cones go, I would have added a shot of one of those, but they had already gone through multiple squirrel shredders and consisted of a pile of pine cone bits that made a nice deep mulch pile under each of the large trees.

The north easement to the property has 25-30 years of neglect and the property was purchased from a trust, so I would have to speak with some of the locals for more history.  The area is mixed farmland, forest, abandoned farmland, tree farms, fruit farms . . .

I'm headed that way this weekend.  If you need a cone, I could take a gun and try to shoot a branch off before the squirrels get to them again.  I don't think that I could get to any cones on these trees without climbing higher than I want to.

[mesquite buckeye]

Shoot a cone off with a 22. Douglas fir has projections sticking out from the cone scales that look kind of like the back end of a rat, 2 feet and a tail. Hard to mistake for anything else if you see that. The leaves of your tree look like a could be, but the cones would make it for sure if that is what they are. ;D

[kderby]

That sure looks like a spruce. 

The cone identifier is accurate.  It looks like a tiny squirrel is stuck inside the cone.  The Doug fir bud is very tight, pointed, smooth and dark brown.  I'll bet these trees have yellowish, loose and scaled tips on the end of every branch.

KDerby

[BradMarks]

It might be DF, but growing in a non-native area, the needle and branching characteristics look a little different than what I'm used to. DF needles should come out all around the stem, some of those appear to come out from two sides and lay flat more like a true fir. Also seems like a lot of excessive branching on the small laterals to me.  Anybody else?

[Draco]

After looking at some of the thoughts here, I looked at images and agree with BradMarks that the needles are flat.  That would rule out Douglas Fir.

A couple of the mulch piles contained a few old cones, or pieces.  I could not find anything with the bracts that would identify it.  The cones look too long, skinny and curved.  The scales look too small to be Douglas.


 

I did have to look through a bunch of piles of cone pieces before I found a few cones and bits.  I suppose all of the bracts could be gone.  I didn't see cones that I could shoot at, so I don't suppose that I could have hit the branch that I wanted. 

Of course, the trip to find the cones created a new question for me.  The green cone came from more than 100 green cones, evenly scattered under one tree.  Is this something common that I have never noticed?  They are oozing sap and even though I don't know much about conifers, they can't be mature, can they?  Do some cones fall green and then open?  If not, what might be the reason?

This is why I can't see the cones:


 

Thanks again for the help.

[beenthere]

From the cones, I'd say spruce too.

[mesquite buckeye]

Not douglas fir for sure.

Sometimes squirrels cut off cones.

[Ljohnsaw]

<<snip>>
Sometimes squirrels cut off cones.

Got that right   I had a squirrel drop a BIG green cone from about 100' up a Ponderosa onto my aluminum canoe sitting on my truck rack - TWICE!  Sounded like a propane bottle going off at 0600 in the campground!  Got up to look around and the cone was sitting on top of the canoe  :-[

[S.Hyland]

I would say certainly Spruce. I built my timber frame house out of spruce from my property. It's good wood but the knots are hard!

[Draco]

I read that in Michigan, I should only find red, white and black spruce.  The photo of the branch that I took doesn't appear to be any of these, or the others shown.  The needles do not circle the branch.  Looking like another trip is in order.  Should have brought a branch home!  Good excuse to do a color tour with the fiance' and score some points.  Just have to get her to go for a walk in the woods before we head home.


    

[Clark]

You might find Norway spruce also.  Based on what I see growing out there, it was planted in the midwest quite extensively in the 50's and 60's. It's not uncommon to see it growing along roads where they planted it.

Also keep in mind that the photo you posted is the "ideal" foliage.  It looks like your branch came from a shady spot which makes it look more like a fir than spruce. If you were to get a branch from the very top then the needles would look more like your picture.

The picture of the needles that you posted sure look like fir but then I see the little bumps where needles were growing which is indicative of spruce. Bring some binoculars along next time and look at the cones at the top of the tree.  They should be hanging which is spruce, fir have standing cones that fall apart once they are ripe.

This should also help:

http://uptreeid.com/Species/spruces.htm

Clark

[giant splinter]

Not Douglas fir (branching is too spindly) I think its a spruce but its unlike the ones on the west coast.

[nk14zp]

Could it be balsam fir?

[Draco]

Thanks to everyone.  I'll be making another six hour round trip in order to try to solve this puzzle.  I have been kicking myself for not grabbing a branch when I was there, Sunday.  A needle would have settled the question of spruce/fir.  I can take binoculars along for a verification by cone orientation.  I hope that I don't have to resort to a DNA sample for this ID!  I didn't think that it would be this hard.  Had I known, I would have sent everything to mesquite buckeye and had him post another quiz for everyone.  I do feel better about my inability to ID this without help!  I'm leaning toward blue spruce now.

[mesquite buckeye]

I like your idea. Maybe I will post pictures of plants sometimes and not just boards. ;D ;D 8) 8) teeter_totter smiley_biggrin01

[beenthere]

Draco
What is so critical about the identification? 

Lawsuit? Big bet? curiosity? 

A good way to get top branches and a cone would be with the shotgun.  Works great if the branches will fall to the ground.   ;D

[Jeff]

Definitely not a blue spruce, most likely white. The white spruce in the U.P. this year have an abundance of spruce cones. If white, the cones should be around two inches long.   You would know if it was a Norway as it would have large cones. 5" long or maybe larger.  Balsam fir will have smoother bark and tell tail pitch pockets on the trunk. Black spruce generally has a much scalier bark. Looking at the aerial view, I'd say you have some Eastern Larch in the area, but pretty sure you have a white spruce.

Draco
What is so critical about the identification? 

I'd say it's on his property and he wants to know. To me, that's as critical as it gets for me too. ;)

[Draco]

MB,
If I ever figure this out, I'll just send you a bunch of pictures from another conifer.  Maybe we can start a new topic - The Conifer Kwiz.

Jeff,
Sorry, I just noticed that the photo of the cones was corrupted.  I fixed it and the cones are back.  They are about 3.5" long (picture on 2"X4").  So, could it be a white and a norway hybrid? ???  ;)

BT,
A friend told me that they were Douglas fir and I am not easily convinced.  I'd hate to build a cabin out of logs and not know what kind they were.  I hope to spend my last days in those walls. 

I would be embarrassed to ask someone to haul a few loads of "some kind of tree" for me and it is DRIVING ME NUTS!  The shotgun is a great idea, especially if you had some wind to help.  I do believe that it is small game season here and I bet I have to buy a small game license in order to legally take a loaded shotgun into the woods, so that I can achieve this next mission objective.  If I told the CO that I was just shooting branches out of tall conifers, I'd probably go to the local nut house, or he would pull a Euell Gibbons line on me.

[beenthere]

I do believe that it is small game season here and I bet I have to buy a small game license in order to legally take a loaded shotgun into the woods, so that I can achieve this next mission objective.  If I told the CO that I was just shooting branches out of tall conifers,

I'd just tell them I was target practicing, but if concerned I'd contact the CO and tell them exactly what you are doing. Tree sampling. If a license is needed for that on your own land, they can give you that info.

Thanks for the reasoning, as even if it is just a good/lame excuse to visit your forest is good enough as I see it.
8)

I think spruce is what you will find.

[Draco]

The mystery continues.  The needles are flat.  According to what I read that means they are Fir trees.  The cones hang down.  That means that they are Spruce trees.  When the needles are shed, the bark is smooth and no "projections" are left, indicating fir.

I grabbed some branches for clues.  They have some random, roundish "nodules" on them

   and what looks like immature cones that never developed.



 



 

[Jeff]

That looks like hemlock.

[WDH]

Yep.

[rendezvous]

Yup Doug fir needles are not flat.
Greg