Wisconsin/Minnesota State DNR Employment Insight

[BuckeyeAaron]

Hello all.  I sort stumbled upon this forum while doing some research and I'm glad did.  From my brief browsing so far it appears there is a wealth of knowledge here.  Please forgive me if I am in the wrong area for this post.

I wanted to reach out to anyone that has any experience or knowledge with the Wisconsin or the Minnesota DNR Forestry departments.  I was recently offered an opportunity to interview for a Forester position with both agencies.  Both positions seem to be comparable as far as pay and responsibilities though I don't know the specifics yet.  From what I gather it seems that both states have a solid program but I am having a tough time deciding which way to go.  I would interview for both but unfortunately I must finance the travel and budgeting two trips to the same area, within 3 weeks of each other, isn't feasible coming from Boise, ID.  The costs add up quickly.  I was hoping some folks on here may have some insight as to any benefits or negatives associated with these agencies.

From my initial research, I am leaning towards pursuing the WI opportunity since there seems to be a greater dispersion of large cities (population greater than 30,000 people) which is important for work opportunities for my wife (she is a RN and works in Case Management).  Beyond that, it is also closer to our home state of Ohio which may make visiting family for holidays a bit easier to accomplish.

Any other insight would be great as to what these states have to offer (i.e. hunting, quality of life, cost of living, winter weather).  I realize I'm asking a lot of any advice and input would be greatly appreciated.

[BuckeyeAaron]

Hello all.  I actually posted this in another forum but I thought this one may be more appropriate.  I couldn't figure out how to delete my original thread/post so this is somewhat duplicated.  Sorry for mucking it up. 

I wanted to reach out to anyone that has any experience or knowledge with the Wisconsin or the Minnesota DNR Forestry departments.  I was recently offered an opportunity to interview for a Forester position with both agencies.  Both positions seem to be comparable as far as pay and responsibilities though I don't know the specifics yet.  From what I gather it seems that both states have a solid program but I am having a tough time deciding which way to go.  I would interview for both but unfortunately I must finance the travel and budgeting two trips to the same area, within 3 weeks of each other, isn't feasible coming from Boise, ID.  The costs add up quickly.  I was hoping some folks on here may have some insight as to any benefits or negatives associated with these agencies.

From my initial research, I am leaning towards pursuing the WI opportunity since there seems to be a greater dispersion of large cities (population greater than 30,000 people) which is important for work opportunities for my wife (she is a RN and works in Case Management).  Beyond that, it is also closer to our home state of Ohio which may make visiting family for holidays a bit easier to accomplish.

Any other insight would be great as to what these states have to offer (i.e. hunting, quality of life, cost of living, winter weather).  I realize I'm asking a lot of any advice and input would be greatly appreciated.

[beenthere]

Welcome to the Forestry Forum.
I think it is a toss-up between the two states, but I'm real encouraged by our recent political change in WI that has taken our state from a 3.9 billion dollar shortfall to almost a billion dollar excess in 3-4 years.
Seems like a healthy environment in the state. And the new head of our DNR seems to have some real positive future outlooks that should be good for Forest management climate.
Others may not look at it as being positive, but with talk of lowering income and property taxes (right, talk is cheap) it looks like a much better employment outlook as well as business growth opportunity. That in turn should be good for Forestry.

Looking at a District Forester position, or a position over our District Foresters?
Wisconsin used to have a pretty strong Utilization and Marketing position in DNR. From what I gather, that isn't as strong now and may be just hearsay.

[BuckeyeAaron]

Thanks for the welcome beenthere.  I have read a little about the "political charge" in Wisconsin and it is generally in a positive light.  I also read that property tax in WI tends to be high but then I heard the same thing about MN.  While important, that won't be a significant factor in our decision making.  And beyond the numbers and figures, my gut keeps pulling me to pursue WI, for what its worth.  Though I know that an interview doesn't mean an offer...

The actual position is still a bit vague to be honest.  There was a posting late last year that was asking foresters for all experience levels to apply.  They advertised a large pay range and a large range of duties.  I interpret that as there must be new openings or vacated positions that must be filled in various locations throughout the state and of various needs (fire management, silviculture, private landowner assistance, etc.).  In short, it was a blanket job advertisement and there still several unknowns.  But I passed the first two "rounds" (online application and then phone interview) so I will hope for the best and see what happens.

[Clark]

If you want to be in the woods managing forests I would look at the total acreage managed by each agency and the number of people they have doing that work. I won't keep you waiting, the obvious winner in that category is MN. 

MN - 3.78 million acres, ~400 people in forestry division
WI - 1.56 million acres, unknown to me

Having grown up in MN and seen the MN DNR forestry division work from the inside out and then attending school in WI, I consider the WI DNR to be over-staffed and under-landed...if that make sense. Granted, the MN DNR is surely headed in that direction (over-staffed at least), it is just another bureaucracy. You might also be thinking this guy has a libertarian streak...you'd be right.

In WI there are also county forests, which by the acre are larger than the state forests, that the state has oversight on depending on the agreement that exists between the county and state for tax purposes.  It never made much sense to me but that whole issue seems very odd to me.  Granted, it would be more of an issue if you were looking to work for a county in WI but you could end up administering county lands even though you work for the state.

Don't get me wrong, in general WI has more productive land and generally more aesthetically pleasing landscapes.  They also have larger chunks of the oak-hickory dominated forests in the south which I find much more appealing than the pine-spruce-fir boreal junk type that we get in NE MN. WI does have some very, very nice northern hardwoods in the NE part of the state and I don't think it gets much better than that.

I do know that the MN DNR was also understaffed for the last ~5 years and they have been waiting for a more ample budget to fill those vacancies.  With those vacancies out there it should be easier for you to take a promotion/transfer quickly to someplace that you more enjoy.  I don't think finding a job for your wife would be that difficult, but I know next to nothing about nursing or how flexible she is within that field.

Best of luck making your decision.  I just read an article about employee retention and it claimed that within 60 days of being hired most people know if they want to stick around or make this job a pit stop on the way to something better. Something to keep in mind no matter where you go.

Clark

[Magicman]

Welcome to the Forestry Forum, BuckeyeAaron, and I wish you the best with your future.

[BuckeyeAaron]

Thanks for the welcome MagicMan and thanks for the info Clark.  You provided a lot of great information.  I have a buddy I graduated from college with that works for the state of MN and has nothing but good things to say about it.  He is strongly encouraging me to pursue it further.  And while I find myself in agreement with most of your stances towards the two states (as they relate to forestry), there is the usual "baggage" that comes with taking a new job in a new state.  Beyond the numbers and figures all of the other things that make life what it is.  That is where I am getting hung up because I keep circling back to WI.  My experience in forestry would be much better suited for the hardwood mix that you described in WI but I'm sure I could manage in MN too.  And your point about knowing if a job is a good fit quickly is well taken.  My career has unfortunately been job-to-job the past 4 years... not something I'm proud of but life sometimes takes us in directions we never expected.  So with this next job/move my wife and I both really want to make sure we are making a good, educated decision so that we put ourselves in a position to finally start putting roots down and being to feel somewhat settled - especially as we contemplate starting a family.  Regardless, thanks for you thoughts - I really do appreciate them.

[Clark]

Ultimately it is unfortunate that you can't interview for both positions and instead have to choose one over the other.

I wouldn't let familiarity with pulpwood country be a deterrent because there are two easy solutions to this: One is to paint a line around every sale you have and tell them to take it all except the white pine (the more traditional forest management method) or you can apply that hardwood knowledge to our hardwood sites and make this state produce some decent wood.

For a very long time the state has managed almost exclusively for pulp production (snore fest!) outside of the driftless region and select areas in central MN.  Hardwood sites in northern MN have been relegated to growing aspen and some hardwoods.  The reason has always been that we can't produce good hardwoods.  Some of this is a self-fulfilling prophecy.  If you treat your forest like it can only produce pulp then chances are it will only produce pulp.

It is true that most hardwoods sites in northern MN can't produce high quality maple or oak. Mostly it's firewood with some logs that you can get rustic grades of lumber out of. Our paper birch, basswood and (may they rest in peace) elm are very high quality. Basically nobody is making any effort to try and produce higher quality stands of those species.  One exception is the Rajala companies.

All of which is to say that there are some exciting opportunities in forest management in MN. Some things that have yet to be done in MN: write the book on managing high quality paper birch and basswood, integrating white pine into hardwood sites, reestablishing white cedar on high ground and using fire as a more integrated silvicultural treatment on our fire dependent sites. One day that list will hopefully include reestablishing dutch elm disease resistant elm back into our forests. Working for the DNR would give you the resources to explore most of these topics and with time, more freedom to pursue them.

Best of luck figuring things out, it's not an easy choice to make.

Clark

[Small Slick]

Buckeye, Wisconsin just went through a MAJOR public union battle. I have some insight on this as my wife is a teacher and my dad is a politician. I feel that as mentioned before our state budget is in great shape and it will probably only get better for public workers from here on out for a while. It might be slow improvements though.

I don't know much about the dnr in Minnesota but the forests up north are pretty boring.

Look into the political climate in Wisconsin and see if it fits you.

John

[BuckeyeAaron]

Thanks, Small Slick.  I do recall the union battles when it was all over the news.  I did receive some more information late Friday night regarding the WI interview.  It is tentatively scheduled for Feb. 26 at 5PM (interesting time I thought for government workers) in Wausau, WI.  It is a 3 hour "assessment" with one oral component and two practical components.  I'm not sure what is meant by practical but I am to receive more details in a week or so.  Sounds like a much more involved process than the MN route. My current plan is to fly into Madison and then rent a car for the drive north.

After many conversations and looking at these potential opportunities from every angle with my wife, we have decided to withdraw from the MN opportunity.  I certainly see the appeal with potentially joining the MN DNR but it just didn't fit our life plans/style.  I also realize that having an invitation to interview doesn't mean an offer but I will do my best and see what shakes out.  It's exciting to think of the potential.  Thanks for everyone's insight and if you have further commentary to add please do.  This board has been very helpful.

[colincb183]

There's a regional airport (Central WI airport) about 10min. south of Wausau and its only about a 5 minute drive from the Marathon  county DNR office (I'm just assuming that is where the interview is) , I'm sure that would save you some time. Hope that helps a little.

[beenthere]

colin
Might be cheaper to fly into Mad Town, and easier to rent a car there too. Just a couple hours to drive up I-39.

What I would do anyway. Flight scheduling even into Madison is (can be) a nightmare these days.

And cheapest might be to fly into MPS and rent. Madison used to have good flight connections, but not so much any more.

[BuckeyeAaron]

I looked into flying into Wausau but this was over $220ish more expensive.  I researched Minneapolis, Madison, and Milwaukee and surprisingly Madison was the cheapest (not by a huge margin though) and appears to be the shortest drive.  The interview is actually in Rothschild, WI, and will take place at the Stoney Creek Inn oddly enough. 

[Small Slick]

The public jobs still are very desirable in Wisconsin. It's true they have to pay more in health care and retirement contributions than before, however they are highly sought after positions.

I wish you good luck. The Rothschild area has massive sawmills and paper factories. Lumber, timber and pulp are a major part of the economy. Also I'm sure that managing for wildlife ie whitetail deer is a huge deal here. All that and the Green Bay packers are only an hour away!

Good luck with the interview.

John

[BuckeyeAaron]

Thanks, John.  I'm looking forward to visiting the area.  All I have seen of WI is from the main interstate as I traveled from Ohio to Montana.  Beautiful country without a doubt.  While the interview is taking place in Wausau, I still don't know where the position will be placed.  I'm hoping it will be near a larger city for the sake of my wife's employment.  From what I've read, it seems that Wausau, Steven's Point, Eau Claire would be nice areas to settle near.  Being near Madison would have huge advantages for my wife's future employment but I don't know how likely that will be.  If you, or anyone else from WI, have input on cities and a good place to call home I'd be very interested to know.  Thanks again.

[Small Slick]

What does your wife do for work?  What makes you think being near a bigger city is better?  I am a small town county guy. 

If you go to Google and search county forester, it will pull up websites.  One of the first few will be WDNR or Wisconsing Dept. of Nat. Resources.  You can pick a county in the state, I work in Dunn and live in Chippewa counties.  Select a county and it will give you links to and names and phone numbers for local foresters who work for the DNR.  That might be a resource for you to dig into.

John

[beenthere]

John
In the OP stated

which is important for work opportunities for my wife (she is a RN and works in Case Management).

And you make good points, that there are good opportunities throughout the state for jobs and especially RN's .

[BuckeyeAaron]

Ultimately I doubt I will have much say in where the positions will be and where I could be placed.  But yes, correct, my wife is an RN.  She spent several years as a floor nurse but has more recently transitioned to case management (placing patients after leaving a hospital and coordinating insurance coverages - especially now that Obamacare is in full swing).  Generally speaking, the larger the city the greater the opportunity for her in her field.  I realize that forestry job opportunities and other careers don't always mesh well and if she has to return to floor nursing she said she will but I'd prefer she get to keep a steady schedule and keep her weekends.  I was just curious if you guys had any input regarding city choice if, by some chance, they asked if I had a desire for one area over another.  From what I have been reading, it seems that Eau Claire, Lacrosse, Madison, Appleton, and Wausau may all be decent choices. 
 
I suppose the better question is, are there cities I should absolutely say "no" to?

[Small Slick]

My reccomendation is to stay away from the following cities, MILWAUKEE (AVOID IT LIKE THE PLAGUE), Beloit (the arm pit of WI) and Superior (a city that can be rough and the people are too).  These are just my opinions, based on nothing but how I feel.  Madison is very liberal politically, its a decent town, can be fun to visit.

Maybe consider looking at where the major hospitals and universities are and that might be helpful in your wife's job search.

John

[rocksnstumps]

Slick's listing of cities captures my thoughts as well. Another thought on potential locations is if your wife might want to continue her education some day. I have several friends who's spouses went through the nurse practioner program at Bellin in Green Bay and a good program I hear. So around Green Bay/lower Door County would be good for that opportunity.

If your big into the outdoors, the further south you are in Wisconsin the more hiking and biking trails you'll find but the more people using them is also true. Hunting and fishing can be good many places but the further north you go the less crowds you'll run into.

Mad Town can be a fun place to visit but wouldn't want to live there. The politics and higher cost of living would be a turn off for me. My brother and his wife used to split the difference on one working in Madison and one working outside of Milwaukee. Yes they both had to travel over an hour to get to work but the real point is think bedroom community close to the interstate. Being 5-10 mins from a good major highway can make living a ways outside a "prime' area still  doable if you can keep the travel to under 45 mins or whatever. Wisconsin does have fairy decent roads even in winter conditions (our high taxes help in that regard I guess)

[BuckeyeAaron]

Great input, guys.  I really appreciate all of the feedback.  If I were single and only concerned with myself I would love the opportunity to find a small community somewhere and grow some roots.  The key is balance now with my wife involved - I'm not complaining.  I have been reading good things about Appleton recently as well.  I think our ideal situation would be to live somewhere out of town but be within 30 mins or so of work/conveniences.  And hunting and fishing opportunities is important to me but I suppose I am only a few hours drive to get to good ground regardless of where we may end up.  Politically speaking, Madison may be a bit uncomfortable given my personal views but I doubt it would keep us from living there - but the cost of living certainly would.   But I said before, I doubt I will have much influence on where my position would be placed - if I even get an offer.  I just booked my flight today and will be landing in Madison and traveling north to Wausau on Feb. 25.  I'm eager for the interview and waiting a month is killing me! Ha.

[beenthere]

Personally, I don't think you can go wrong wherever in WI you can land a job as far as you and your wife finding a desirable location with good potential job opportunities in her RN field.
At least I can't think of any and they all include your hunting and fishing opportunities as well. 
Adding elk and wolves to the list to hunt (if lucky on the draw) and bear hunting is good as well. Deer for sure and ducks, geese, rabbits, squirrel, etc. also. 

[Ron Scott]

I agree!

[BuckeyeAaron]

I received some forms via email yesterday and got a lot more info on the hiring process.  One form is a placement preference list.  I tried to be flexible to increase my chances of getting offer.  I selected all regions except the most northern district and requested to be placed within a commutable distance to some of the larger cities (i.e. Milwaukee, Madison, Eau Claire, Appleton, Wausau, La Crosse).  I also found out it is a solid week of interviews that start at 8AM and go until 8PM so it sounds like there will be a decent chunk of competition.  Offers will be made in late March.  Hurry up and wait I suppose.  It's almost like it's a government agency. Oh wait.....  Haha

[Ron Scott]

Being flexible to the location will greatly help your chances. Nothing wrong with the most northern districts either. Some very nice forest areas.

[BuckeyeAaron]

I got back late last night from my crazy fast trip to WI for my interview.  Good weather for the drive from Madison to Wausau.  Clear skies and clear roads just cold. 

It was one wild setup for the interview (over three hours, several groups of personnel).  It involved a 50 minute oral, followed by a role playing exercise where I was the Forester assisting a private landowner with an 80-ac tract of land, and a leadership exercise where I had to lead a team of four across a "rushing river" to safety.  Really nice folks and I think I did well.  I won't know anything until the last week of March though.  Just thought I'd update everyone.  Thanks for all of the original input!

[BuckeyeAaron]

So it has been some time since being on the board. It has been a hectic month. But I received an offer today to join WI DNR in Hayward, WI. The financial aspect and benefits are all acceptable but I am having reservations on moving to such an isolated area of the state and such a small town (2300 people). So I was wondering if any of you guys had any experience with the area? Maybe offer some opinions regarding living in NW Wisconsin? Thanks!

[chevytaHOE5674]

Send a message to Red Oaks Lumber here on the forum. He lives in Spooner, Wi which just a hop skip and a jump from Hayward.

[BuckeyeAaron]

Great suggestion. Thanks so much.

[thecfarm]

That's about 1000 more people than is in Chesterville.  ;D
Congrats on the job!!

[Gary_C]

Hayward is a nice location. I do much of my logging in the Danbury, WI area and have spent a bunch of time in the Hayward area. My wifes brother has a cabin outside of Hayward. And LP has a pulp mill in Hayward where they have been traditionaly been an OSB mill but have transitioned some of their production to Smart Siding.

As far as medical facilities, you would be somewhat near Duluth/Superior and there are many regional hospitals in the area so I doubt your wife would have any problem finding a good job.

Hayward is known for being a very nice place for vacationing with loads of lake cabins, etc. Down side is real estate is expensive. But if you get outside of the hayward area, there are good choices for places to live.

[BuckeyeAaron]

Thanks for the info.  Just how brutal are the winters? I realize that's a bit subjective but I know my wife has concerns. We are both from the Cincinnati area so we are used to cold and snow but nothing near the magnitude I would imagine Hayward being.

[beenthere]

Aaron
Maybe it would be good if you didn't go into this new adventure with all the negatives and fears.

;)

Just sayin...  there likely will be many more positives (than negs) once you get there and both apply yourselves to a good life together.

[BuckeyeAaron]

Aaron
Maybe it would be good if you didn't go into this new adventure with all the negatives and fears.

;)

Just sayin...  there likely will be many more positives (than negs) once you get there and both apply yourselves to a good life together.

Very true.

[Ron Scott]

Hayward, WI is an excellent area for a forester to work in, especially if you like a diversity of outdoor activities such as hunting, fishing,downhill and cross country skiing snowmobiling, etc. Mt. Telemark Ski Area is there, the famous Birkbiener cross country ski race is held there, etc. Yes, they have snow, but they also have the 4 seasons. A great duty station for a forester in my opinion, and I would feel lucky to have been offered it. There are a lot worse places to work. 

[Tarm]

If you are like all the other new DNR foresters you will get your foot in the door in Hayward and then lateral to a more densely populated duty location when one becomes open.