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The Greenhorn's initial sawing season 2019-20

Started by Old Greenhorn, May 06, 2019, 08:10:34 PM

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Nebraska

Better weather heading your way, worked cattle in shirtsleeves this afternoon, got over 50. Take care of yourself and get some rest.

richhiway

Quote from: Old Greenhorn on December 03, 2019, 07:10:39 PM
Quote from: richhiway on December 03, 2019, 07:07:58 PM
Better rest up a couple days. Feel Better.

Rich
How much did you get down your way? Or is it UP your way? Your two locations straddle me and I am not sure where you are.
I live in Monticello. My camp is up in North Hudson. We had a lot of sleet and about 10 inches. Lucky it wasn't a bad ice storm.
Woodmizer LT 40
New Holland 35 hp tractor
Stihl Chainsaws
Ford 340 Backhoe

ManjiSann

OG, looks like you're hard work payed off! 

It's hard to lay around and "do nothing" but resting to get better is something. Won't do any good to get hurt or stay sick longer. Find a good movie or some nice music and have @doc henderson prescribe you a sick day :D 

Get feeling better soon!

Brandon 
Poulan Pro 5020AV, Husky 390XP

Old Greenhorn

Well I got very little stuff, sawdust wise, to contribute today. I called in sick yesterday and really was. i did NOTHING all day because I had zero energy. I watched Netflix until I was sick of it and any household chores I could think of meant I would have to get out of the chair and that felt too much like work.  The 'number challenged' UPS guy delivered yet another package to our house that belonged next door. I took it over and while I was out I walked across the road and through the drifts to swap the card on my trail cam. I could see a lot of activity in the snow and 'somebody' had bedded down right underneath the camera which is strapped to a small Hemlock with nice low shade branches. Then I came back in and never went out again. I went through the clips and had a few usable ones. This one is a little notable:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xkHWDluVU8

I went to bed at 7:30 last night. Got up today thinking I would go to work, shaved, put on a clean shirt and all that but when it came time to go warm up the truck I just couldn't do it. Still no energy at all. SO I called in again, which I really did not want to do. This means havoc will prevail in my absence and I will have to do a lot of damage control when I return. Hopefully today I will recover a little more. I am going to take Barndon's advice and listen to some good music. I have a CD playing right now that is a new release from my friend Chris Loquette and is doing pretty well. It is very well crafted music and Chris's first solo release although he appears on many many ensemble albums with Dirty Kitchen and others. Chris is a monster on Guitar, Banjo, and Mando.

 Maybe tomorrow I will have something better to add here. Today I think I will try to work on project sketches and the associated BOM's, maybe try to clean the mess that is my desk, although that is real work. ;D
Tom Lindtveit, Woodsman Forest Products
Oscar 328 Band Mill, Husky 350, 450, 562, & 372 (Clone), Mule 3010, and too many hand tools. :) Retired and trying to make a living to stay that way. NYLT Certified.
OK, maybe I'm the woodcutter now.
I work with wood, There is a rumor I might be a woodworker.

thecfarm

Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Old Greenhorn

That seems to happen quite often. It's those dang infrared leds that attracts them in when they get close.
Tom Lindtveit, Woodsman Forest Products
Oscar 328 Band Mill, Husky 350, 450, 562, & 372 (Clone), Mule 3010, and too many hand tools. :) Retired and trying to make a living to stay that way. NYLT Certified.
OK, maybe I'm the woodcutter now.
I work with wood, There is a rumor I might be a woodworker.

ManjiSann

Oh no, you've been discovered! Time to scrub the site and disappear Jason Bourne style  ;D ;D

Huh, someone actually took my advice?? That's gotta be a first  :) :)  Lets see what else I can do with my advice... "You have the urge to pack your sawmill up and send it to a bald guy in Utah..."  ;D ;D

All joking aside, take it easy and get feeling better soon my friend. 

Brandon 
Poulan Pro 5020AV, Husky 390XP

Old Greenhorn

Home sick for the 3rd day in a row and I am miserable enough that I have not been able to do anything but read the FF, watch Netflix, and worry about how bad things are at work. And now.... it's flipping snowing again......
 So I am forcing myself to do something useful even if it is down at the desk. I have always wanted to get a better handle on board footage which I feel is necessary going forward. I have never allowed myself time to go through the numbers and wrap my brain around it with respect to estimating within reason how many board feet will be required for a specific design or BOM, and how to estimate how much, or whether or not you can get that quantity out of the available logs you have or estimate how many logs you will require to fill out a BOM.  I find all these very useful tools and something I should understand better. It also lets me figure pricing as compared to others in a more or less accurate manner.
 SO I searched the forum as usual and as usual there is a ton of information and threads. Almost as much as oil/gas mix, sharpening chains, blade lube, chickens, and grits.  ;D
Just picking two threads as examples that I found useful:

http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=45346.msg655790#msg655790
(This one I really liked because Jeff weighed in to set the record straight for folks who might find the thread in future searches. That person would be me, and now maybe you too.)

I also found this one which is a good discussion:
http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,18015.0.html

I also found a few good references in the wider internet regarding 'how to' use of the various measuring sticks. I shopped for some sticks (looking for international 1/4 scale) but they are a bit pricey for my limited usage (at this point). However I find that I can just chart my log sizes then come home and use the FF calculator in the tool box ( http://forestryforum.com/calcs/sawlogbf.htm ).

 My goal in this learning experiment is to scale the logs I cut my my loft project, then keep track of what I get out of them and compare to get a feel for the ups and downs. I have added up the exact BF of the wood required for the loft and I want to see how my scaling measures up (see what I did there) against the final output.
 I figure if I have to sit around, I may as well learn something while i am doing it.
 Now I have to find something else to do because I feel like I am not going to be too much better tomorrow. I am chomping to get out in the woods and make some measurements.
 Any suggestions for arm chair work?
Tom Lindtveit, Woodsman Forest Products
Oscar 328 Band Mill, Husky 350, 450, 562, & 372 (Clone), Mule 3010, and too many hand tools. :) Retired and trying to make a living to stay that way. NYLT Certified.
OK, maybe I'm the woodcutter now.
I work with wood, There is a rumor I might be a woodworker.

Old Greenhorn

OK, hearing no suggestions and never being accused of being a patient guy, I bundled myself up (I just can't seem to get warm, even in my 74 degree den) and jumped in the Mule to go measure the next logs I am taking, which are already down but not bucked, so measuring was easy and accurate. I marked as I measured so I can track the results through the process. Then I came back in and ran the numbers and here is where it gets interesting (from an educational standpoint) as well as confusing. I used 3 different calculators to figure the board footage. Now all of those pretty much agreed on the Doyle standard, only vary by a bf or two. But on the international scale they varied widely. I don't want to start a debate on who(m) is right or wrong so I am not going to list the sources. One was the F/F calculator, another was a calculator on another online forum/website, and the 3rd was a chart by a bandsaw mill company most folks know. (no, it is not woodmizer). I am not sure which to believe and I am also not splitting hairs here. The total board footage across these 3 sources ranges from 225 to 310 BF for the same logs (30%?). Again, I am not trying to pit one against another or find the exact right answer, I know this is not an exact science. I wish I had a scaling stick so I could compare what I get from that too. If anyone is interested I will list here the numbers I got and hope the formatting and everything comes through so it makes sense. Maybe you have a way to calculate the numbers yourself and come up with something different. It's a fun exercise if nothing else. The columns should read as follows: Log#, SED (small end diameter), Len (Length), Doyle, Int1, Int2, and Int3 for the 3 different sources used.

Log#     SED      Len     Doyle     Int1     Int2     Int3
1          14"          12'      75          83      100      102
2          13"         8'        41          30       55        58
3          10"         8'        18          22        30       32
4          15"         12'      91          90        115     118
Totals                           225        225       300     310

I think it's interesting that there is an 85 BF difference between the high and the low numbers. If you were talking about dollars that could add up quick. But I am not thinking about dollars, just trying to learn how these numbers will relate to actual BF in production. My logs will have trim, but I did not include that in my calculations. The 12' logs will be bucked at 12'6" but the excess is waste, so I left it out. I think that was right, was it not? Anyway, that is a nit. I am more interested in which set of values turns out to be most accurate for me. I'd be interested to hear any thoughts on why the international scale results vary so much. obviously there are variances in the underlying calculations some where, but I am wondering why that is. There are a lot of guys here that know this stuff inside out, including our fearless leader. Anybody care to further my education?
  I am going to try to trick this through the milling cycle so I can see exactly what I do get from each of those 4 logs. I figure that will be where the truth will begin to reveal itself. I just wish I didn't feel so poorly and those logs were not in a swamp covered by a foot of snow. It's going to be a little work to get them out. ;D
Tom Lindtveit, Woodsman Forest Products
Oscar 328 Band Mill, Husky 350, 450, 562, & 372 (Clone), Mule 3010, and too many hand tools. :) Retired and trying to make a living to stay that way. NYLT Certified.
OK, maybe I'm the woodcutter now.
I work with wood, There is a rumor I might be a woodworker.

SawyerTed

Good understanding comes from doing exactly what you are doing.  Measuring logs, sawing them, then measuring the actual board feet produced.  

It is interesting to compare the actual board feet produced by the thin kerf bandsaw to the three scales - Doyle, Scribner and International.  The scales I believe were developed for circle sawmills and the wider kerf.  I know what my experience is.  It would be interesting to know others' experience in actual board feet compared to scaled board feet.  
Woodmizer LT50, WM BMS 250, WM BMT 250, Kubota MX5100, IH McCormick Farmall 140, Husqvarna 372XP, Husqvarna 455 Rancher

Old Greenhorn

Quote from: SawyerTed on December 06, 2019, 04:42:28 PM
Good understanding comes from doing exactly what you are doing.  Measuring logs, sawing them, then measuring the actual board feet produced.  

It is interesting to compare the actual board feet produced by the thin kerf bandsaw to the three scales - Doyle, Scribner and International.  The scales I believe were developed for circle sawmills and the wider kerf.  I know what my experience is.  It would be interesting to know others' experience in actual board feet compared to scaled board feet.  
Ted, what do you think of the disparity I found in the 3 international references I found?
Tom Lindtveit, Woodsman Forest Products
Oscar 328 Band Mill, Husky 350, 450, 562, & 372 (Clone), Mule 3010, and too many hand tools. :) Retired and trying to make a living to stay that way. NYLT Certified.
OK, maybe I'm the woodcutter now.
I work with wood, There is a rumor I might be a woodworker.

Nebraska

I bought an international stick after reading because I thought the way it was set up it would be more fair if I were to buy a log from someone. I know that with the narrow kerf of our band mills the yield per log will be a larger by a percentage. I also thought at the time I would have to buy  some logs to saw but  so far I haven't.  If I need to though  I could pull up a regional lumber price report and at least say in western New York Red Oak stumpage is bringing x amount.  That way giving an informed bid.  Around here we have two markets Walnut and everything else, and  everything else  goes to the pallet mills mostly. Since I'm not going to sell lumber and I'm sawing for me mostly it probably  wasn't that important of a purchase but it killed a bunch of idle time reading about it when it was too cold to do much else. I havent  measured a done pile from a log yet to compare  how it yielded to the stick estimate, but if it's not dark when I get home I have a done stack  laying by the mill I can do  quickly from the last log.. 
This is probably  a better topic to  ponder than 35 hp  front wheel assist loader tractors while you are under the weather. Hope you are better soon.

Old Greenhorn

@Nebraska can you do me a favor and look at your stick and tell me what it says for a 12' log with 14" SED? I'd like to see if the stick shows yet another difference. Also, is your stick International 1/4" or international 1/8". I have just found that they are both 'out there'. Not everyone specifys which one they are. I am guessing your stick is 1/4" which means a 1/4" kerf is figured in the math.
Tom Lindtveit, Woodsman Forest Products
Oscar 328 Band Mill, Husky 350, 450, 562, & 372 (Clone), Mule 3010, and too many hand tools. :) Retired and trying to make a living to stay that way. NYLT Certified.
OK, maybe I'm the woodcutter now.
I work with wood, There is a rumor I might be a woodworker.

SawyerTed

Quote from: Old Greenhorn on December 06, 2019, 04:45:54 PM
Quote from: SawyerTed on December 06, 2019, 04:42:28 PM
Good understanding comes from doing exactly what you are doing.  Measuring logs, sawing them, then measuring the actual board feet produced.  

It is interesting to compare the actual board feet produced by the thin kerf bandsaw to the three scales - Doyle, Scribner and International.  The scales I believe were developed for circle sawmills and the wider kerf.  I know what my experience is.  It would be interesting to know others' experience in actual board feet compared to scaled board feet.  
Ted, what do you think of the disparity I found in the 3 international references I found?
What I found is the Doyle scale is most conservative - generally it scales a log to the least board feet.  The International scale generally scales to the greatest number of board feet.  In my sawing, lumber produced comes closer to the International scale.  

Others with more knowledge can elaborate on the origin of the scales and the scale that is more accurate for small or large logs. I recall a discussion on this very topic here on the forum.
Woodmizer LT50, WM BMS 250, WM BMT 250, Kubota MX5100, IH McCormick Farmall 140, Husqvarna 372XP, Husqvarna 455 Rancher

Old Greenhorn

I get that part, it became apparent pretty quickly as I studied it. However, what I am asking is how can I find 3 different references that claim to be using the international scale and they all have very different numbers for the same log! I have since tried a 4th reference ad gotten yet another value. Who does one trust given that they are all 'accurate guesses'?
Tom Lindtveit, Woodsman Forest Products
Oscar 328 Band Mill, Husky 350, 450, 562, & 372 (Clone), Mule 3010, and too many hand tools. :) Retired and trying to make a living to stay that way. NYLT Certified.
OK, maybe I'm the woodcutter now.
I work with wood, There is a rumor I might be a woodworker.

Nebraska

@Old Greenhorn  I will check when I get home, and  let you know when I can, it  won't still be daylight yet. Work just erupted  with an urgent case. Thought for a bit I'd have some light left no such luck. 

Old Greenhorn

Quote from: Nebraska on December 06, 2019, 05:34:00 PM
@Old Greenhorn  I will check when I get home, and  let you know when I can, it  won't still be daylight yet. Work just erupted  with an urgent case. Thought for a bit I'd have some light left no such luck.
No sweat the numbers will wait.
Tom Lindtveit, Woodsman Forest Products
Oscar 328 Band Mill, Husky 350, 450, 562, & 372 (Clone), Mule 3010, and too many hand tools. :) Retired and trying to make a living to stay that way. NYLT Certified.
OK, maybe I'm the woodcutter now.
I work with wood, There is a rumor I might be a woodworker.

SawyerTed

Maybe @YellowHammer or others will shed some light on the use of the scales.
Woodmizer LT50, WM BMS 250, WM BMT 250, Kubota MX5100, IH McCormick Farmall 140, Husqvarna 372XP, Husqvarna 455 Rancher

donbj

Quote from: Old Greenhorn on December 06, 2019, 05:32:35 PM
I get that part, it became apparent pretty quickly as I studied it. However, what I am asking is how can I find 3 different references that claim to be using the international scale and they all have very different numbers for the same log! I have since tried a 4th reference ad gotten yet another value. Who does one trust given that they are all 'accurate guesses'?
I'm a licensed British Columbia log scaler since the mid 90's and have looked into some of the scales that a mentioned here. The ones that use only the small end diameter in my opinion are not a fair scale regarding actual volume. We use the metric scale and account for the taper in the log by a measurement at both ends with some allowance for the flare. If the flare has been cut off it's measured on the cut end.
The volume is tallied in cubic meters and is all the wood in the log, not just the small end run through, which in my opinion is "giving away" the wood in the tapered part. This is why it is easy to cut at times way over the scale especially in heavily tapered logs using small end scale only.
Metric scale gives you every bit of wood in that tree, now it's up to you to get what you can out of it including the tapered wood that at times holds significant wood.
I may be skinny but I'm a Husky guy

Woodmizer LT40HDG24. John Deere 5300 4WD with Loader/Forks. Husky 262xp. Jonsered 2065, Husky 65, Husky 44, Husky 181XP, Husky 2100CD, Husky 185CD

Nebraska

 

 14 inch log says 100 board feet on my stick, it's 1/4 " kerf  international scale
The last Ponderosa log I milled was 23" tapering to 18 1/2, the stick says 140 bf at 18"  under a 10 foot length. Under 23" it lists 235 bf. My actual yield was 215bf counting the 24 stickers I cut out of the waste. Granted my kerf is 1/8 so I gained quite a bit with that, but it still  surprised me.  

YellowHammer

This is where the old saying that more money was made and lost with a tape measure and scale stick than ever was made with a sawmill. Some local places here buy on one scale and sell on another, for some species.

I myself have learned some hard lessons of being on the wrong end of a scale stick.  

Most of the scale formulas, such as Doyle, are pretty easy and are only derived from a few basic characteristics of the log, but the Interntional Scale, developed back in the 1900's was an attempt to really get an accurate result, based on log taper and saw kerf. Clark, the original developer of the rule, developed a stepped equation that changed based upon the length of the log.  Later, in the 1950's a fully integrated Rosenbaugh equation came into use.  So, I would consider that equation the standard and compare your scale sticks to that.  Put the equation in a spreadsheet and run some numbers.  

As to the question of why the "most accurate" scaling method would have different results for the same log sizes, in webpage calculators, on scale sticks, etc, would have to do with which actual formula was used, and if it was adjusted for log length, such as the original Clark equations required, or if it was using the fully integrated Rosenbaugh equation that was developed decades later.  It may be that the companies who produced the sticks or the programmers who authored the web page calculators used the wrong equation.  It may also have to do with the amount of significant figures carried during the calculation because these are cubic formulas and a little rounding error could really make a difference.

Anyway, Purdue has a pretty good reference paper on the subject that provides good info on all the major log scales and their correlation to each other.  It gives the actual equations you can use to determine which of your sticks is really right. I would this as a reference to cross check.

https://www.extension.purdue.edu/extmedia/FNR/FNR-191.pdf

YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

Ianab

I suspect that some of the old scales were developed to deliberately under-estimate smaller logs.  The effect would be that the mills paid less for them, which was fair because they are take more time to saw, and on average produce lower grade boards. 

International scale seems to give a better estimate with smaller logs, but it's not that popular because mills don't want to buy smaller logs for top dollar. 

Here in NZ logs are usually sold by the ton, but there will be different price brackets depending on size and grade. Makes life pretty simple if you can load a truck with a full load of "grade x", and then just run over a weighbridge. Price per ton is lower for smaller and knotty logs. But it would get complicated with mixed species / grades on the same load, hence I can see why you might want to use a log scale. 
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

ManjiSann

OG and all, thanks for this conversation and all the info! I had no idea this subject even existed and now I get to learn even more  :P :P 8) 8)

Brandon 
Poulan Pro 5020AV, Husky 390XP

Old Greenhorn

I did not have a good night and had to get up a few times to clear coughing fits, that gave me a chance to read some of the above responses. But with my addled brain and the early hour, there was no way I could parse out all the math and thoughts. Now that I have 3 cups of coffee in me and a bunch more reading done I will take a shot.

@Nebraska   @SawyerTed , @donbj , @YellowHammer , @Ianab , and @ManjiSann thank you for your thoughtful and informative responses. Nebraska thanks for checking your scale that comes in pretty close to what I am narrowing in on as the most accurate answer and confirms to direction I was leaning in. YH, thanks for the link, but more importantly thanks for opening my eyes to the difference between the Clark and Grousenbaugh International rules. When I saw that in your note I immediately stopped reading and looked it up finding the Perdue paper (then saw your link when I went back to reading). Now many of the online calculators do not tell you if they are using Clark or Grosenbaugh's method. So there is disparity there, also Clark had a '1/4 inch rule' and a '1/8 inch rule' which only some of the calculators declare. One site had both (Spike). So right away we see there is disparity and confusion afoot.
 
Again, my goals here were and are:
1) get a better understanding of board footage calculations and the various methods.
2) measure some logs and record the results.
3) Mill those logs and see what board footage I actually get. This should solidify my level of knowledge and confidence.
4) the root purpose was so that I could estimate how many logs I would need for my own presupposes and projects. It was not for resale. This is why tonnage or cubic volume does not work for my needs. We build with board feet, not tonnage. ;D I can see where tonnage is probably the best, most fair for commercial sales, but I bet there is some debate there also. :D This not not an exact science. (it's very close, but not exact.)

The snag I hit was finding many online calculators and I naturally compared them (you can't trust everything you read on the internet- Abe Lincoln). All the Doyle calculators were very close, but the International calculators varied wildly. SO THAT was essentially my question: why the variation?

 Given that there are 3 different formulas under the name of "International Scale" I think we can see the issue. (Clark International 1/4", Clark International 1/8", and Grosenbaugh International 1/4").
 
Now getting back to my little chart above after learning everything you folks shared and doing further reading, I went back and reviewed those numbers. The first column marked "INT1" comes from a straight chart. I went over this chart comparing other log sizes to the various international scales and can only conclude that this chart is just wrong. It intersects here and there with better values, but mostly it is wide of the mark. So if you throw that one away as bad data and look at the next 2 columns, you see they are very close. Much closer than I would worry about for errors. The lesson learned here is the different formulas for the international scale and that one needs to know which one they are using, if it matters to them. I also learned that the calculator here on the F/F is most likely using the Grosenbaugh formula, which means I can get my numbers right here in the future (Int3 column in my chart are the F/F numbers). I don't have a spreadsheet program here at home, but if I did, I am not sure if I am savvy enough to work the formulas into a tabular comparison. The Grosenbaugh formula is somewhat complicated (Board Feet International = 0.049 761 91 LD2 + 0.006 220 239 L2 D – 0.185 476 2 LD + 0.000 259 176 7L3 – 0.011 592 26L2 + 0.042 222 22L) and doing all the cell reference work would probably mess me up.

 So I have learned a lot about this and I am concluding part 1 of this exercise (I think). Part 2 will be where I skid the logs up and mill them to see what I really get. The way I feel, that won't happen for a week. 

 I look froward to part two!

 (BTW Brandon, this was something I looked into a year ago and read widely about on the forum and elsewhere. I came away with a headache and general confusion. This time I was/am determined to understand this knowledge that I think is necessary for me at this point.)
Tom Lindtveit, Woodsman Forest Products
Oscar 328 Band Mill, Husky 350, 450, 562, & 372 (Clone), Mule 3010, and too many hand tools. :) Retired and trying to make a living to stay that way. NYLT Certified.
OK, maybe I'm the woodcutter now.
I work with wood, There is a rumor I might be a woodworker.

ManjiSann

I can understand the headache and confusion part of it  :o  It's a lot to take in. 

To make matters worse for me, there's no 3/8" kerf calculator for my purposes  ;D  I doubt I need that kind of accuracy right now but I'm excited to study the formulas and get a better understanding of how they work. I might eventually understand them well enough to tweak one to fit my chains kerf, assuming I ever feel the need. 

With the small projects I'm doing and being so new to it I don't feel it's as relevant to me as it is to someone such as you who's building a structure or the others who saw for a living or are paid to. Right now my method is get the log THEN figure out what to do with it  :D I'm still a tadpole in all this.

Still, it's an awesome subject and I appreciate you delving into it so much. I printed the Purdue sheet off and will put it in my reference book  :P and I bet in the near future it'll become more relevant to me.

Brandon 
Poulan Pro 5020AV, Husky 390XP

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