Brey-B-Technik winch conversion kit

[by677]

Hi, anyone heard of the German Manufacturing Corp Brey-B-Technik that makes tractor winch conversion kit to convert a manually operated winch (with ropes) to a remote controlled operated winch?   I need if anyone has ever manage to build such a kit on their own and if so, wouldn't mind sharing some inputs.  I would love to be able to just order such a kit from the manufacturer but the asking price (just went up again) when converted to my country's currency is more than what I paid for my winch.  I have never had the opportunity to have a close look at what's inside the conversion kit box to figure out what parts I may need to build it.  The YouTube videos are only showing how to install the kit and basics operation, nothing internally revealing. Trading in my actual winch for a hydraulic winch is not in the cards either.  My intensions here are not commercially driven just for my own personal use.
Any input or links on the subject would be appreciated.

Thx

Guy

[furltech]

I was always thinking about this when i had mine  one i dea i had was to mount a small atv winch at the top to pull the cable and you can remote that winch with a small wireless remote i guess it is not much help for the brake rope but might be something to look at .if i am explaining it clearly

[by677]

That might work but I am a bit concern about clutch slippage as the lever pulling action has to be quick to avoid premature wear of the clutches.
One other alternative I was considering is a 12V DC linear actuator which would be easy to install and to operated wirelessly.  The issue with this is the duty cycle at 25% meaning that I when I reel out over 100' of wire, I would have to consider a cooling down time for the actuator to avoid overheating.
Unless I hear about actuator with higher operating duty cycle percentage, I that may turn out to be a no go.
That leaves me with the hydraulic conversion option which I have very limited knowledge about.  I need to know what type of hydraulic valve, solenoid I would need in order to activate two small hydraulic cylinders, either be dual or single hydraulic cylinders.  Speaking of hyd cylinders, should single or double action cylinders be considered while keeping in mind that it has to pull and retract quickly. Operating pressure also need to be adjustable to prevent clutch failure.
This is what I am juggling with these days more so when wood harvest time comes.

[Puffergas]

Nice application for air cylinders but then ya need a compressor.

[by677]

 For lack of an air compressor, I wonder if air cylinders would tolerate hydraulic oil?

[North River Energy]

^Keep it simple. You can actuate the air cylinder with a 12v tire inflator, and trigger the inflator with a wireless remote.

[by677]

How much pull can one get out of an air cylinder and how quick can it actually pull in the clutch lever to ensure a no slip engagement of the winch clutches?

[North River Energy]

^
As with hydraulics, the answer will depend on cylinder bore, available air volume, and pressure.
I'd start by determining the pull required to 'lock' the clutch using a spring scale.
And then work outward from there.

[by677]

Right !  The rope to pull the clutch lever is looped thru 2 small pulleys which reduce the pulling effort to engage the winch clutch system.  I once did measure the pull required to move the clutch lever and I recorded about 45 lbs on the spring scale. That's with no actual pulling of any load, just to move the level from its resting place.  Depending on the load or the size of the log(s) to pull, the effort required to keep the winch working, pulling logs varies.  I would say that I would need somewhere around 100 lbs to cover all range of loads I may come to pull.
One concern of mine with the suggested air system is air supply since no air tank seem to be involved.  To quickly activate the winch pull lever, I think some kind of air accumulator will be required if a quick air cylinder pull action is to be expected.  Mind you I never experimented with this kind of set up before.  That said, I may be wrong but I doubt a tire inflator will be able to provide enough air pressure in a short time to expect the cylinder to move quickly.  Or would the size of the relative small air cylinder chamber be filled up rapidly enough?  If not, then the cylinder rod will only move in a gradual manner causing the clutch to slip.

[North River Energy]

That being the case, what about driving an older truck air compressor off the PTO and then using an air brake pot for the actuator?

[by677]

That might work my friend but I don't think I am willing to go that way, too cumbersome and too much work.  I have attempted to post a pic of a setup I found once on the WEB which is similar to what I would like to make. I am not familiar with posting pics here and god knows if that will work.  Unfortunately, I have no recollection of where I found that pic so I can't get in touch with the owner.  

[North River Energy]

Do you have a link to a schematic for your winch, to present a more complete idea of what needs controlling?
Specific mechanical application helps the spatial reasoning.

[by677]

NRE, did you manage to access the pic link I posted on the Forestry Forum?  Let me know if you did and I could add a pic of my own Taifun winch which is nearly identical to the pic I posted of another winch manufacturer.

[North River Energy]

I saw the linked photo. Assuming one ram controls the clutch, and the other moves the drum lock pawl?
Trying to wrap the brain around what each ram needs to do, and when, and whether or not they need to be single or dual acting.
Also trying to picture what can go wrong with hydraulics v manual or air control. Would suspect that it should release faster than engage (dead man default mode).

[by677]

One ram for each control lever.  On that pic we don't see much of hydraulic valve/solenoid. That's my week link. The rams also look be a bit big for the required pull. I would be very interested to see what Brey-B-technik got under the hood.
https://youtu.be/GYyvIa3Y3Ps

[North River Energy]

The knowns:
The yellow winch uses a 2 section Rexroth solenoid valve, 12 v, probably open center, most likely 10 gpm, dual acting.
Probably not a motor spool type, but that would depend on how the rams are supposed to behave in the absence of 'signal'.
Surplus Center offers similar for 125-150 each, plus 35 for each manifold, then 5 each for the electrical connectors.
If the winch controls are spring return, not sure why the yellow unit is configured with dual acting cylinders, unless that is determined by available valving.
It appears that the cylinders were selected with large rods for rapid action on retract, with the base fluid routed to the head for 'regenerative' effect?
The unknowns(from where I'm typing):
The mechanical requirements of your winch controls.

[by677]

Lots of good points there.  Your explanation for the use of large cylinder rods make sense.  The controls are spring return.  Would it be enough to overcome some cylinder oil resistance ? Would a single action cylinder with integrated return spring be an interesting option?  I may be wrong but the yellow winch does not seem to have wireless capability.  Did you watch the Brey-B-Technik video?  The speed of the pull and release actions of the control levers is optimal.
My own winch is attached to a MF245, with 10 gpm, and I believe is an open center.

[bill m]

by677, Are you trying to make this a wireless remote or be able to operate it from the seat of your tractor? Here are pictures of how I set up my winch. A little different application but you get the idea of how the linkage is setup.

 

[by677]

Hi Bill, I would very much like to be able to operate it remote.  Right now, I can operate it standing some distance from my tractor thru the ropes that are attached to both control levers.  What I need is to operate it wirelessly.  Part of my land is rough and sloped, involving snatch blocks and often time I don't see what is at the end of my winch line and when the log gets stock, I have to walk back and forth to unstuck it and it can really gets tiresome at the end of the day.   I want to be able to walk next to the log(s) I am winching and unstuck it along the way if need be.
By the way, your set up is cool. What kind of control do you use to activate the hyd cylinder?  It seems like you just need a pull and release (lock in and out) type of system which is different from when having a clutch system like mine has.

If the Brey-B-Technik conversion kit was more affordable I would simply buy it.  When shipping and currency exchange is all accounted for, this adds up to half the cost of what I paid for for my winch.  I don't quite understand why a North American made version of Brey... conversion kit is not available or am I simply not looking at the right place? At a reasonable price, there would be buyers.

[North River Energy]

The dual acting cylinders might be used to overcome the drag associated with higher fluid viscosity in cold weather. That might have been simpler than trying to calculate spring constants/return rates etc.
Once you have a 12v valve, going wireless isn't too much of an issue.
Surplus Center has a few controllers that might work for less than $100.

You'd probably want to incorporate adjustable pressure regulators, and/or travel stops for each cylinder.

It's the kind of project where if you stare long enough at the available options, the answer will suddenly become obvious.
As to why there isn't an NA option available, it might have something to do with how many winches are sold over here, vs over there.

[by677]

Good point about the dual acting cyl, makes sense. I will look into the Surplus Center for your suggested controllers later on.  The adjustable  pressure regulators and travel stops are a must for sure.
A local specialized hydraulic shop I visited once told me that heat may be of a concern in that set up of mine.  I don't remember what he exactly meant by that. I think that it might have something to do with the fact that more oil would be delivered to the controller/valve that what would be needed to activate and keep the winch going and heat may be generated in the process.   Not sure I got it right though.

[North River Energy]

He was probably thinking that if a cylinder was used to hold, but not lock the clutch, then you'd be using the relief on that circuit for the duration of the pull. And that would lead to rapid heating. I think that answers the dual v single acting cylinder question.
I used air cylinders to actuate a detented control valve, where the air was only present to latch the valve, and then bled off to allow the detent to 'kick out' at the end of cylinder stroke without resistance.
In your case, assuming the clutch doesn't lock over-center, that cylinder has to move and then hold position with the spool back in neutral to allow fluid circulation.
Might want to incorporate a pressure switch that would send a signal back to the hand control to let you know that each cylinder had reached the end of travel and unseated the respective relief, ensuring the clutch was properly engaged.
Or something similar.

[by677]

I think that's what it was meant by the possible heat issue, the bleed off of oil during the pull.  The longer the pull the worse it could get.  Plenty of good suggestion from your part, very appreciated. You obviously seem to have a better understanding of how to go about this than I do.

Might want to incorporate a pressure switch that would send a signal back to the hand control to let you know that each cylinder had reached the end of travel and unseated the respective relief, ensuring the clutch was properly engaged


Would the pressure switch be adjustable since the end of the cylinder travel may not have to be reached to get adequate clutch engagement?

[North River Energy]

If you're using a manual valve, and you run a cylinder to full stroke, you'll hear/feel the relief 'squeal'.  If you're using a remote some distance from the system, a flashing light on the hand control activated by a pressure switch would serve as an analog for your sense of touch.
That, or you can time the function, and then count seconds while you hold the button. That would do just fine for proof of concept.

I'm no 'last word' on this stuff, but have learned a lot along the way. Once you get this figured, you'll be all set to manufacture...

[by677]

NRE, I will go back thru the thread here and see if I can come up with a some kind of a draft list of the components this set up of mine may include. This will certainly trigger some interesting discussions with local hydraulic component suppliers up here.  I do appreciate your inputs and shared experience with hydraulics. That kind of encourage me to pursue on my project.  Due to other obligations, it may not rank first on my priority list of things to do right now although I would appreciate a wireless winch to pick fallen trees on my woodlot.