iDRY Vacuum Kilns

Sponsors:

Brey-B-Technik winch conversion kit

Started by by677, April 14, 2016, 09:48:48 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

by677

Hi, anyone heard of the German Manufacturing Corp Brey-B-Technik that makes tractor winch conversion kit to convert a manually operated winch (with ropes) to a remote controlled operated winch?   I need if anyone has ever manage to build such a kit on their own and if so, wouldn't mind sharing some inputs.  I would love to be able to just order such a kit from the manufacturer but the asking price (just went up again) when converted to my country's currency is more than what I paid for my winch.  I have never had the opportunity to have a close look at what's inside the conversion kit box to figure out what parts I may need to build it.  The YouTube videos are only showing how to install the kit and basics operation, nothing internally revealing. Trading in my actual winch for a hydraulic winch is not in the cards either.  My intensions here are not commercially driven just for my own personal use.
Any input or links on the subject would be appreciated.

Thx

Guy



furltech

I was always thinking about this when i had mine  one i dea i had was to mount a small atv winch at the top to pull the cable and you can remote that winch with a small wireless remote i guess it is not much help for the brake rope but might be something to look at .if i am explaining it clearly

by677

That might work but I am a bit concern about clutch slippage as the lever pulling action has to be quick to avoid premature wear of the clutches.
One other alternative I was considering is a 12V DC linear actuator which would be easy to install and to operated wirelessly.  The issue with this is the duty cycle at 25% meaning that I when I reel out over 100' of wire, I would have to consider a cooling down time for the actuator to avoid overheating.
Unless I hear about actuator with higher operating duty cycle percentage, I that may turn out to be a no go.
That leaves me with the hydraulic conversion option which I have very limited knowledge about.  I need to know what type of hydraulic valve, solenoid I would need in order to activate two small hydraulic cylinders, either be dual or single hydraulic cylinders.  Speaking of hyd cylinders, should single or double action cylinders be considered while keeping in mind that it has to pull and retract quickly. Operating pressure also need to be adjustable to prevent clutch failure.
This is what I am juggling with these days more so when wood harvest time comes.

Puffergas

Nice application for air cylinders but then ya need a compressor.
Jeff
Somewhere 20 miles south of Lake Erie.

GEHL 5624 skid steer, Trojan 114, Timberjack 225D, D&L SB1020 mill, Steiger Bearcat II

by677

 For lack of an air compressor, I wonder if air cylinders would tolerate hydraulic oil?

North River Energy

^Keep it simple. You can actuate the air cylinder with a 12v tire inflator, and trigger the inflator with a wireless remote.

by677

How much pull can one get out of an air cylinder and how quick can it actually pull in the clutch lever to ensure a no slip engagement of the winch clutches?

North River Energy

^
As with hydraulics, the answer will depend on cylinder bore, available air volume, and pressure.
I'd start by determining the pull required to 'lock' the clutch using a spring scale.
And then work outward from there.

by677

Right !  The rope to pull the clutch lever is looped thru 2 small pulleys which reduce the pulling effort to engage the winch clutch system.  I once did measure the pull required to move the clutch lever and I recorded about 45 lbs on the spring scale. That's with no actual pulling of any load, just to move the level from its resting place.  Depending on the load or the size of the log(s) to pull, the effort required to keep the winch working, pulling logs varies.  I would say that I would need somewhere around 100 lbs to cover all range of loads I may come to pull.
One concern of mine with the suggested air system is air supply since no air tank seem to be involved.  To quickly activate the winch pull lever, I think some kind of air accumulator will be required if a quick air cylinder pull action is to be expected.  Mind you I never experimented with this kind of set up before.  That said, I may be wrong but I doubt a tire inflator will be able to provide enough air pressure in a short time to expect the cylinder to move quickly.  Or would the size of the relative small air cylinder chamber be filled up rapidly enough?  If not, then the cylinder rod will only move in a gradual manner causing the clutch to slip.

North River Energy

That being the case, what about driving an older truck air compressor off the PTO and then using an air brake pot for the actuator?

by677

That might work my friend but I don't think I am willing to go that way, too cumbersome and too much work.  I have attempted to post a pic of a setup I found once on the WEB which is similar to what I would like to make. I am not familiar with posting pics here and god knows if that will work.  Unfortunately, I have no recollection of where I found that pic so I can't get in touch with the owner.  


North River Energy

Do you have a link to a schematic for your winch, to present a more complete idea of what needs controlling?
Specific mechanical application helps the spatial reasoning.

by677

NRE, did you manage to access the pic link I posted on the Forestry Forum?  Let me know if you did and I could add a pic of my own Taifun winch which is nearly identical to the pic I posted of another winch manufacturer.

North River Energy

I saw the linked photo. Assuming one ram controls the clutch, and the other moves the drum lock pawl?
Trying to wrap the brain around what each ram needs to do, and when, and whether or not they need to be single or dual acting.
Also trying to picture what can go wrong with hydraulics v manual or air control. Would suspect that it should release faster than engage (dead man default mode).

by677

One ram for each control lever.  On that pic we don't see much of hydraulic valve/solenoid. That's my week link. The rams also look be a bit big for the required pull. I would be very interested to see what Brey-B-technik got under the hood.
https://youtu.be/GYyvIa3Y3Ps

North River Energy

The knowns:
The yellow winch uses a 2 section Rexroth solenoid valve, 12 v, probably open center, most likely 10 gpm, dual acting.
Probably not a motor spool type, but that would depend on how the rams are supposed to behave in the absence of 'signal'.
Surplus Center offers similar for 125-150 each, plus 35 for each manifold, then 5 each for the electrical connectors.
If the winch controls are spring return, not sure why the yellow unit is configured with dual acting cylinders, unless that is determined by available valving.
It appears that the cylinders were selected with large rods for rapid action on retract, with the base fluid routed to the head for 'regenerative' effect?
The unknowns(from where I'm typing):
The mechanical requirements of your winch controls.

by677

Lots of good points there.  Your explanation for the use of large cylinder rods make sense.  The controls are spring return.  Would it be enough to overcome some cylinder oil resistance ? Would a single action cylinder with integrated return spring be an interesting option?  I may be wrong but the yellow winch does not seem to have wireless capability.  Did you watch the Brey-B-Technik video?  The speed of the pull and release actions of the control levers is optimal.
My own winch is attached to a MF245, with 10 gpm, and I believe is an open center.


bill m

by677, Are you trying to make this a wireless remote or be able to operate it from the seat of your tractor? Here are pictures of how I set up my winch. A little different application but you get the idea of how the linkage is setup.

 
NH tc55da Metavic 4x4 trailer Stihl and Husky saws

by677

Hi Bill, I would very much like to be able to operate it remote.  Right now, I can operate it standing some distance from my tractor thru the ropes that are attached to both control levers.  What I need is to operate it wirelessly.  Part of my land is rough and sloped, involving snatch blocks and often time I don't see what is at the end of my winch line and when the log gets stock, I have to walk back and forth to unstuck it and it can really gets tiresome at the end of the day.   I want to be able to walk next to the log(s) I am winching and unstuck it along the way if need be.
By the way, your set up is cool. What kind of control do you use to activate the hyd cylinder?  It seems like you just need a pull and release (lock in and out) type of system which is different from when having a clutch system like mine has.

If the Brey-B-Technik conversion kit was more affordable I would simply buy it.  When shipping and currency exchange is all accounted for, this adds up to half the cost of what I paid for for my winch.  I don't quite understand why a North American made version of Brey... conversion kit is not available or am I simply not looking at the right place? At a reasonable price, there would be buyers.

North River Energy

The dual acting cylinders might be used to overcome the drag associated with higher fluid viscosity in cold weather. That might have been simpler than trying to calculate spring constants/return rates etc.
Once you have a 12v valve, going wireless isn't too much of an issue.
Surplus Center has a few controllers that might work for less than $100.

You'd probably want to incorporate adjustable pressure regulators, and/or travel stops for each cylinder.

It's the kind of project where if you stare long enough at the available options, the answer will suddenly become obvious.
As to why there isn't an NA option available, it might have something to do with how many winches are sold over here, vs over there.

by677

Good point about the dual acting cyl, makes sense. I will look into the Surplus Center for your suggested controllers later on.  The adjustable  pressure regulators and travel stops are a must for sure.
A local specialized hydraulic shop I visited once told me that heat may be of a concern in that set up of mine.  I don't remember what he exactly meant by that. I think that it might have something to do with the fact that more oil would be delivered to the controller/valve that what would be needed to activate and keep the winch going and heat may be generated in the process.   Not sure I got it right though.


North River Energy

He was probably thinking that if a cylinder was used to hold, but not lock the clutch, then you'd be using the relief on that circuit for the duration of the pull. And that would lead to rapid heating. I think that answers the dual v single acting cylinder question.
I used air cylinders to actuate a detented control valve, where the air was only present to latch the valve, and then bled off to allow the detent to 'kick out' at the end of cylinder stroke without resistance.
In your case, assuming the clutch doesn't lock over-center, that cylinder has to move and then hold position with the spool back in neutral to allow fluid circulation.
Might want to incorporate a pressure switch that would send a signal back to the hand control to let you know that each cylinder had reached the end of travel and unseated the respective relief, ensuring the clutch was properly engaged.
Or something similar.

by677

I think that's what it was meant by the possible heat issue, the bleed off of oil during the pull.  The longer the pull the worse it could get.  Plenty of good suggestion from your part, very appreciated. You obviously seem to have a better understanding of how to go about this than I do.

Might want to incorporate a pressure switch that would send a signal back to the hand control to let you know that each cylinder had reached the end of travel and unseated the respective relief, ensuring the clutch was properly engaged


Would the pressure switch be adjustable since the end of the cylinder travel may not have to be reached to get adequate clutch engagement?



North River Energy

If you're using a manual valve, and you run a cylinder to full stroke, you'll hear/feel the relief 'squeal'.  If you're using a remote some distance from the system, a flashing light on the hand control activated by a pressure switch would serve as an analog for your sense of touch.
That, or you can time the function, and then count seconds while you hold the button. That would do just fine for proof of concept.

I'm no 'last word' on this stuff, but have learned a lot along the way. Once you get this figured, you'll be all set to manufacture...

by677

NRE, I will go back thru the thread here and see if I can come up with a some kind of a draft list of the components this set up of mine may include. This will certainly trigger some interesting discussions with local hydraulic component suppliers up here.  I do appreciate your inputs and shared experience with hydraulics. That kind of encourage me to pursue on my project.  Due to other obligations, it may not rank first on my priority list of things to do right now although I would appreciate a wireless winch to pick fallen trees on my woodlot.

Hilltop366

I too have wished for a remote for my winch but cannot justify the cost, If I was to make one I figure I would need to run the clutch only, I figure I will be walking right past the drum lock to get on the tractor and can release the drum lock with a rope while on the tractor.

One thing I see on the remote winch kit for my norse 390 is a remote throttle control that increases the engine speed when engaging the winch I think that this feature would be handy as I often start winching and realize I need to increase the engine speed which would be a total pain if I was 100 feet away using the remote.

To me the ideal setup would be a single acting cylinder and return spring, if a mechanical advantage was used the cylinder would not have to be very long.

For the valve my idea (and I don't know if anyone makes one) is to have a valve that when energized would supply power to two components of the valve one part being supplying pressure to the cylinder until the cylinder is fully extended and then hyd pressure is turned off by a cutoff switch or until the remote button is released. The other part is a normally open release valve that when energized with the same remote button as the clutch will hold the clutch cylinder from returning until the remote button is released.

I'm not sure if that is clear but in the end the way it would work is: when the button is pressed one valve is changed from open to pressure to the cylinder but before the hyd oil gets to the cylinder it goes past a one way valve to prevent the oil from returning when the cylinder reaches full clutch engagement and the power is cut off from the first valve (the first valve then returns to open) then when the remote button is released the one way valve is opened to let the oil in the cylinder return.

A question I do have (besides does any one make a valve like this) is that all the tractor remotes I have seen requires a continuous oil flow but this hyd system idea only requires a single hyd line to the cylinder. Would this single acting cylinder be able to retract by spring pressure and return the hyd fluid to the tractor's hyd system?


by677

Hi Hilltop366, nice comments, glad to see other people out there wishing for the same thing.  You have raised interesting points here and unfortunately I have limited knowledge when it comes to valve and solenoids.  What you say seem to make sense though.  I think North River Energy's comment would certainly add value to the subject.

As far as the single action cylinder, if we could somehow circumvent the heat issue while pulling that might possibly work. As you pointed out, we also have to consider that once in released mode, the cylinder return spring will have to be strong enough to return the oil into the hyd system.   I did noticed Princess Auto sell 1" bore, 4 " stroke hyd cylinder that would possibly work.  I am just not sure about the rest of the system that need to be put together and ordering wrong parts would be costly at the end.
 
The throttle remote control system should not be such a big thing to do as a stand alone set up since it would not involved any hyd set up.  If you were to integrate it with the other operation of the winch control that might be a bit more complicated I would think feasible. 
Right now, I would be just happy to be able to walk by a log as it's being pulled and avoid the constant back and forth walk.
If someone would dare hinting some components supplier and who knows part numbers to narrow down the scope of the research that would be great. 
I came close to by a Norse 390 remote kit once that a dealer had an extra of and I was not convinced it would work for me.



Hilltop366

Quote from: by677 on May 04, 2016, 03:40:34 PM

As far as the single action cylinder, if we could somehow circumvent the heat issue while pulling that might possibly work.
 

I came close to by a Norse 390 remote kit once that a dealer had an extra of and I was not convinced it would work for me.

With the cut off switch at the end of the cylinder stroke there would no longer any fluid flow, the switch would cut power (or ground) to the first valve returning it to the open position. Done right the system should never trigger the pressure relief valve.

Do you remember what the dealer was asking for the Norse 390 remote?


by677

I think the dealer was asking about a grand 5 years or so ago.

Would that cut off switch you have in mind something to be added to a subplate mount of some kind? 


Hilltop366

Thanks for the price info.

I was thinking of a normally closed momentary micro switch, it would have to be mounted so that a part of the clutch leaver or cylinder would contact it to cut power.

If one was to forgo the second valve and cut off switch I wonder how much hyd heating would occur at a low set pressure relief.

Thinking out loud here.
If the cylinder was connected ½ way down the clutch leaver the 100 pound pull at the top would double the required force to 200 pounds, the cylinder has .785 sq inches would require 255 psi hyd pressure to engage the clutch. A 1.5 inch cylinder would only require 115 psi.
(these may be a bit low as I did not take into account the unknown return spring pressure)


Of coarse my calulations could be all wrong so anyone is welcome to check and correct.

The hyd question here would a pressure relief valve set at a few hundred pounds really cause much heating in the time it takes to winch in a few logs?

North River Energy

As regards using the relief as a bypass, you're getting into the notion of duty cycle, or, how much heat goes into the system given the duration of an average 'winch in'.
Might be mistaken, but directional valves are usually available either 'free spool' in neutral, or 'locked' in neutral. If you use the latter, then your cylinder should hold position until released.

There's minimal added cost in using a double acting cylinder over single acting, and single acting electric control valves might be harder to source.
If you use a heavy pull spring between the cylinder rod and clutch lever, you can effectively 'full-stroke' the cylinder, meanwhile 'stretching' the spring to provide the required pull on the clutch. Maybe add some sort of turnbuckle for fine tuning of spring tension.
That would simplify pressure regulation on that circuit, and if it meant holding the control for a three count, you'd probably fully engage the clutch, and only unseat the circuit relief for a half second or so.

You're only talking 10gpm, with plenty of time in between pulls, so it's not super critical. Even so, the simpler system relief valves are, I think, intended to be used as a momentary, not constant part of the flow path.


Micro switches could work fine for setting stroke limits, but it's one more layer of complexity that might not be warranted.

Here's a link to an air over hydraulic pendant control I rigged for one of my splitters. It's a simpler application than your winch, but it might help with the spatial reasoning.
http://beckmannag.com/firewood-production/big-splitter/big-splitter-remote-control

by677

Very interesting NRE, great to see it in action and operating like you intended it to.  Video always talks for itself.  Your sure got around the back breaking issue with those big logs.  Just curious, do you first split your logs into manageable pieces before moving them on to the second wood splitter located next to the conveyer ramp to be spilt into smaller pieces again?

To get back to the topic, what is the air cylinder we see underneath the logger hyd control valve actually doing/controlling and to what is it attached to? 

About the relief valve bleeding off and possibly causing heat, I found this earlier today while squiring, doing my DD on the subject.  Three type of relief valves were discussed. This one description below seems to have some merit with regards to avoid heat problem although this has not yet been confirmed in a real application like discussed here.

c. Bleed-Off Circuit. A typical bleed-off circuit is not installed directly in a feed line. It is Td into this line with its outlet connected to a return line. A valve regulates flow to a cylinder by diverting an adjustable portion of a pump's flow to a tank. Since fluid delivered to a work cylinder does not have to pass through a flow-control valve, excess fluid does not have to be dumped through a relief valve. This type of circuit usually involves less heat generation because pressure on a pump equals the work resistance during a feed operation.

Hilltop366, when you wrote the following, were you concern that the pull required to engage the clutch pull lever would kind of be too light for the capability of the cylinder hence attaching to at lower position.  Are we overkilling it with that size of hyd cylinders?
Judging by the size of the Brey-B-Tecnik conversion kit box, the hyd cylinders they used may in fact be small in size.

If the cylinder was connected ½ way down the clutch leaver the 100 pound pull at the top would double the required force to 200 pounds, the cylinder has .785 sq inches would require 255 psi hyd pressure to engage the clutch. A 1.5 inch cylinder would only require 115 psi.
(these may be a bit low as I did not take into account the unknown return spring pressure)


North River Energy

^Straight wood 13" and under goes through the processor, anything else goes through the other two splitters. Depending on inventory, larger splits will go directly to the 'overnighter' pile (video #2), or will be resplit on the smaller splitter as in the third video.
Definitely cheating. :D

The air cylinder under the valve actuates that valve. It's a front/trunnion mount, with the rod end connected to an extension of the hand lever on the valve. Sometimes I need to control the splitter manually, rather than on the remote, so for this extended 'proof of concept' the original valve controls remaines intact.

The bleed off valve sounds a bit like a variable flow control, whereby pump output can be split in two, with one part incrementally adjustable, and the other as the remainder. I use one of those to control the circular saw drive on my processor.

Hilltop366

Quote from: North River Energy on May 04, 2016, 08:23:37 PM

Might be mistaken, but directional valves are usually available either 'free spool' in neutral, or 'locked' in neutral. If you use the latter, then your cylinder should hold position until released.


Explaining my train of thought.

My way of thinking is for safety reasons a ideal remote system would engage the clutch when the button is pressed and automatically release the clutch when the remote button is released. So a open valve would be the only way to go, I don't think having to press another button to stop the winch is a good idea.

I think a second momentary switch on the remote that would turn on the remote power to reduce the chance of accidental turning on of the winch would be a good idea as well.

North river that works good, I'm wondering if you have used it in the winter and if so do you have had any problems with condensation freezing up your air system? The winter air around here is very humid, truck drivers can have problems with trailer brakes freezing up although it does not seem as bad with newer equipment and good air driers.

by677, the reason I figured the cylinder could be mounted part way down the leaver is that there is lots of power available so by mounting it lower a shorter cylinder could be used and it would reduce the time engage the clutch.

This is all very interesting to me, I think that if I had lots of extra time and a small machine shop I could make a compact self-contained Hyd control unit from a block of aluminum, a check valve (ball and spring) a pressure relief and a few snow plow valve cartridges.



North River Energy

^Good point on the winch shutoff default.
So:
-Single action cylinder, spring return.
-Primary control valve, 'hold' in neutral.
-Secondary solenoid valve tee-d into pressure line on cylinder. This valve normally 'open'. Something like this:
http://www.surpluscenter.com/Hydraulics/Hydraulic-Valves/Solenoid-Valves/HYDRA-FORCE-12-VDC-N-O-SOLENOID-VALVE-9-5112-NO.axd
-Trigger and button momentary control. Trigger closes solenoid, to allow pressure to build in cylinder when button is pushed(shifting main valve spool). When button is released, cylinder movement stops,primary and is held by solenoid valve.
When operator releases trigger, solenoid valve dumps fluid held in rod end, allows cylinder to be extended by spring tension, releasing clutch.
Or maybe you already said that...

I've not had occasion to run the air system in cold weather, so I can't comment on freeze-up. On the other hand, the air volume is small, and the compressors run for only a few seconds at a time, so heat and moisture might not come into play.

Thank You Sponsors!