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Did i do something wrong

Started by Farmboy 96, May 24, 2015, 06:39:14 PM

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Farmboy 96

Hi everyone the other day i stopped in to see a landowner if they might want some wood cut off. Well the landowner isn't really from around here and her property is actually a small farm so she has hired a man to manage her farm. The lady who owns it said she would like to have her 80 acres selectivly cut. So I'm all good with her and the manager but they are part of some group where they get a tax break (not tree growth) because there a farm so they have to ok it with there consulting forester. The forester is putting up quiet a stink about this and wants one of his chum buddies to do the job. But the owner would like me to because I'm just one man with a cable skidder and she isn't to keen on having heavy equipment on her land. The forester doesn't even want to give me a chance and won't even return any of my calls. This is really starting to tick me off.   >:(

sawguy21

Are you properly insured? The forester may be worried about liability. You also may need a business license to be legally hired.
old age and treachery will always overcome youth and enthusiasm

luvmexfood

Probably not. Could be a number of factors such as; the good ole boy system, he could be concerned about a start-up operation, maybe the logger gives him a little "finders fee" or he could have an ego and is upset that the landowner is not following his suggestions. Maybe he is on vacation.

Some of the other guys could probably give you better advice on this but I might be inclined to contact the landowner and make sure they know you are still interested and not getting a response from the forester.

If they insist you do the job and the forester is the kind of person to hold a grudge he will nit pick everything you do. Just do it right.
Give me a new saw chain and I can find you a rock in a heartbeat.

treeslayer2003

Quote from: luvmexfood on May 24, 2015, 07:20:35 PM
Probably not. Could be a number of factors such as; the good ole boy system, he could be concerned about a start-up operation, maybe the logger gives him a little "finders fee" or he could have an ego and is upset that the landowner is not following his suggestions. Maybe he is on vacation.

Some of the other guys could probably give you better advice on this but I might be inclined to contact the landowner and make sure they know you are still interested and not getting a response from the forester.

If they insist you do the job and the forester is the kind of person to hold a grudge he will nit pick everything you do. Just do it right.
i will +1 this word for word. really you used better words than i would have lol.

op you will probably not have much luck with the consulting foresters, get and stay legal and cultivate a relationship with the county guys. show them you can and will do a good job. they get paid by the state and are non biased as long as you do right.

Ron Scott

Encourage the landowner to have the timber harvest put out on bids and insure that the forester includes you on the bidder's list. Is this your first potential timber harvest job or do you have some areas to show the forester that you have experience in this type of timber harvest?
~Ron

jwilly3879

Had a similar situation with a consulting forester on our job. I had worked for the LO for awhile, building him a cabin, barn and a road to his cabin. I knew him through other friends and customers. From the beginning he wanted my son and I to do the job but the forester he hired disagreed, we finally got a 20 page contract signed and started the job. Got a call from the LO to set up a meeting with him to discuss what the forester had told him about us and the job. He was suspicious of what he was hearing, based on out prior relationship so we took him out through the job and he was very happy. Forester claimed we had violated the contract numerous times and were stealing from the LO. Had about 2 cords of firewood stacked on the header and when the forester came checking it was gone. He assumed we had stolen it and reported it to the LO. The LO never told him that he knew about it and had been paid for it so he decided to give the forester a little rope to see where it went.

That forester found another job. The next forester walked the job with the LO and told him he was getting an excellent job and he was lucky to have us do the harvest. The first was never satisfied.

If the LO wants you to do the job she can override the forester but you may have a rough go of it.


Farmboy 96

The Lo wants me to do the job but the forester doesn't. I tried contacting the consulting forester but he won't even call me back. I simply left my name,, #, and asked him if he could plz call me back. I see no reason why it should matter to the forester who does the job so long as the landowner is happy and satisfied with the job. Even if the forester doesn't want me to do the job id really like to figure out something i could do to prove to him that i do exactly what i say. This is my first job and while i don't have insurance yet i know the company I'm gonna use and just gotta call them. I can't afford to pay for something that i don't need until i find work. If the forester isn't willing to even give me a chance how in the heck are younger people like me ever expected to join this industry.

Farmboy 96

Forgot to add that before i cut 1 stick of wood i will have insurance. I know all local and state laws and ordinances.

thenorthman

Do your best to get in on the bidding, and if you get the job do a fine job of it and watch your back the entire time.

If you don't get the job, don't worry about it, you'll get one soon enough, then its up to you to prove Mr. forester wrong on every level, continue to do good work and your name will spread.

besides yer young still... I was once told (repeatedly)"no challenge, no growth"
well that didn't work

JohnW

Could it be due to a minor's incapability to contract?  I think maybe if you make a contract with a minor, you have no way of inforcing it.

Holmes

   JohnW has a good point.  It also could be age discrimination ;) young and inexperienced..  That age issue can be ok for the landowner but I would not sleep well if I was responsible for you working in the woods under my forestry plan.   " This is really starting to tick me off"     Being persistent with a smile on your face and in your voice can go a long way.  Good luck
Think like a farmer.

Phorester

HOLMES and others here have some good points.  Put yourself in the forester's shoes:  Here is a young guy with no experience, no insurance, etc. wanting to cut timber (a very dangerous job) for a landowner who has hired me to see that a timber harvest is carried out safely, legally, and efficiently. Sounds like the forester is trying to protect the landowner.

"I can't afford to pay for something that i don't need until i find work."  Unfortunately, you do need it to find work. If you feel you can't afford to pay for it before you get work, maybe you need to get financial backing from somebody to get all of your business aspects in place before soliciting business. 

In my area, a bidder has to have proof of insurance, business license, logger certifications, etc., etc. in order to bid.  It has to be shown that the logger is a bone fide business operation capable of doing the work. Some foresters require a performance bond of several thousand dollars be posted. Most require a down payment of 10%, 25%, 50%, at the contract signing. The higher down payments are for the smaller jobs. Can you show all of that?

As RON SCOTT says, ask the landowner to have your name put on the bidders list.  If you get the job, good.  If you don't, don't sweat it; you're young and learning. Get all your business and financial ducks in a row. Be politely persistent.  There will be others you will get.

Ed_K

Take some time and write a business plan, your going to need one anyway. Then go to your bank and apply for a (line of credit) try other banks also. When you get a LoC use it, it's better using the banks money for buying insurance and large repairs. My LoC is interest monthly and payback in 11 months, so I have a few months to get ahead then pay it off.
Ed K

Logger003

Like everyone is saying get everything in place. Bid on jobs as they come along, but make sure you can make money on them. Do your best work possible and the work will start finding you instead of you having to find it. I've lost work because of being under bid and I have also been called into a few jobs because my competition didn't do the job the way they said they would. The biggest thing is make a name for yourself. I know it's hard when you first start up but once you prove yourself you will find you maybe busier than you like to be at times.

plasticweld

The best forester is the one on my payroll, otherwise their motives are, "from my experiences" they never ever work in a loggers interest.  Like any businessman they have to justify their pay to the land owner and make a living, they are a representative of landowner first.

Don't expect one to act any different and you will never be disappointed.


I am sure there are good consultant foresters out there, not meant as an attack just a reflection of my experiences so please don't be offended if you happed to be that consultant I never met!

jd540b

If a landowner hires a consulting forester, they are working on their behalf and therefor looking out for them.  As we all know-there are plenty of bad loggers out there, many of whom present themselves very well and "appear" great.  It takes time to build relationships and trust in this business-more than just saying the right stuff.  I would be completely miffed if someone came along and tried to worm there way onto one of my clients' land. 
Most forester have many crews that they work with regularly and have long standing relationships with that make managing clients land seamless and ultimately cheaper and more lucrative for the landowner, because they don't need to be babysat. 
When you are the new kid,  you need to slowly work into the game.  You unfortunately don't get the same say or respect that the guys that have been around for a while get.  Thats how it is here anyway.  One hand washes the other-you need to get your hand in there first and give it time.
I say this from both sides of the fence.  I am a logger and a consulting forester.  I keep the two separate in my business.  My forestry clients I have other contractors do the cutting and all my logging I do for other consulting foresters.  I will only wear one hat per landowner to eliminate any percieved conflict of interest.  The benefit is this has allowed me much experience on both sides of the fence.  JMOpinions.

Puffergas

Back in the day, about 20 years a go, we found that bidding on tracks and working with the consulting Forester was the best way to go.... By far..! They need land owners and loggers and they know that. Of course if you make their work easy they'll like you to. They always solved any conflicts in our favor not that there were any real ones. That became our preferred way of buying small tracks of timber...

Jeff
Jeff
Somewhere 20 miles south of Lake Erie.

GEHL 5624 skid steer, Trojan 114, Timberjack 225D, D&L SB1020 mill, Steiger Bearcat II

Texas Ranger

Rather than get in a tiff about foresters and loggers, may I comment, your age is/may be a problem.  You have youth, strength, desire, etc, but no experience.  See if  you can work with another logger for a while and gain some of the experience that will keep you alive.
The Ranger, home of Texas Forestry

treeslayer2003

it seems to me that loggers and consultants don't see or think the same way. we should both work on that. what the consultants don't get is the financial difficulty in this business. oh the logger has to have this and has to do that, all that costs......and of course, you guys cost. cost here and cost there, after a while a small wood lot ain't worth much with so much coming of the top.
he is young, yes. but what happens when we are to old and didn't allow the younguns to break in here? who cares? we all better. our industry has been in trouble because of greed for a long time, we should try and change that.

and before y'all consultants get all mad at me, i know we need you all. its just that favoritism is wrong and y'all know it. as a very small operator i get over looked on most bids.
i do not want for work, i turn down jobs. the county foresters like what i do but the "commercial foresters think there is not enough money in working with me. the big loggers are in decline, who do you think will be left?

jd540b

I'm going to play the devils advocate.  1)to be a licensed forester (at least here) you need a four yr degree in forestry.  At the tune of about $100,000 to $150,000.  That is a substantial loan to pay back.  Loggers aren't the only ones in the equation with overhead and debt. 
Wood isn't worth nearly what it should be-I figure about half of what it should pay really.  But there is only so much to go around.  Landowners should not have to pay the price for loggers who overextend themselves financially. 
And 2)  if I have crews that have worked for me loyally for years and years cutting all kinds of lots good and bad-and have given me work in return by bringing me in on some of their lots for landowners that want a management plan-why is that favoritism to keep giving them work.  Honestly,  I don't return unsolicited calls from guys i don't know looking for lots to cut.   

Farmboy 96

When i said this is my first job i meant my first one cutting someone else's timber. Ive worked my parents land with my father for as long as i can remember. I started off twitching wood with a farm tractor and winch, at 14 i was put on a saw and was taught how to fell and buck logs properly so as not to damage or ruin the wood. At seventeen I bought my own cable skidder rebuilt the screaming detroit, cleaned and readjusted the temperamental gearmatic 19 and repined and bushed the blade. Growing up whenever we cut wood logs especially it wasn't about quantity but quality. Always tiring to get the highest grade possible rather then just how many logs we can devy out of a tree. I also know how to properly market the wood thats cut. I was raised to never trust a logger or forester and if you wanted the job done right do it yourself but i don't quiet follow that.
Just because I'm 18 doesn't mean I'm not capable of performing the work that needs to be done in the properly manner and that I'm not honest or trustworthy. The forester contacted the landowner today but won't call me back or answer when i call. He's suppose to meet with the owner friday and the owner wants me their to see if theres something that can be done so I'm going to be their. I understand if he says no but he shouldn't be going against his own client and he should have the common decency to call me back. At 18 I am held reliable for my actions so that isn't an issue.

treeslayer2003

your gonna do fine farm boy, don't be discouraged. be polite and curtious but don't get pushed aside. good luck.

Puffergas

Hi Farm Boy,

Give all the foresters a call and get on their mailing list. Every track will have a day when you and the other bidders will cruse the track. Be prepared for a good work out because these boys walk fast..! That will be a good way to start a working relationship. Only bid what it's worth to you and most tracks you may not even bid on but you will be known.


Jeff
Jeff
Somewhere 20 miles south of Lake Erie.

GEHL 5624 skid steer, Trojan 114, Timberjack 225D, D&L SB1020 mill, Steiger Bearcat II

luvmexfood

It's always been aggravating to me when in a business situation someone does not return your phone calls. It's just a common courtesy to me. Even if they just call and say nothing has changed and they will contact you when something has.

Show up for the meeting. Explain the insurance situation in an honest manner. Then if you sense things are not going good maybe suggest that you be given a "trial run" period and if the landowner is not satisfied with your work then the ballgame is over.

It's hard when your young to get started. I always looked younger than I was back when I was around 20. Can remember taking cattle to the livestock market and setting in line to unload. Long lines with sometime a 2 hour wait. Here would come the "pinhookers" swarming around thinking they had found an easy mark. Wouldn't give them the time of day.

We were all young once and I know people like to use existing people they have business relationships with from the past. But, at some point in their career, they were just starting out and someone had to give them a chance. Be it as an individual starting out with his own business or working for someone as an employee. Someone took a chance on them.

Good luck.
Give me a new saw chain and I can find you a rock in a heartbeat.

Glenn

Years ago when i was a logging foreman one of the workers sons used to come with me to work for the odd day.  He even brought his own equipment - made by Tonka !!  Years later - he now owns his own successful logging business !!  It's nice seeing how he started and built his own company !!

Phorester

We are not talking about your experience in the woods.  We are talking about your experience and abilty to run a logging business.

The forester not returning your calls is frustrating and discourteous, but that is not the problem. There's more to being a dependable logger than being able to cut trees, maintain equipment and trucks, rebuilding engines, selling  logs, etc.

I've seen several loggers working for others over the years that thought they could make it on their own. They could cut trees without being killed or killing somebody else, they could drive log trucks, skidders, maintain and repair equipment, etc.   They went out on their own, in a few months or years they were back working for somebody else, because they didn't know how to handle the business end of the business or how to interact with landowners or log buyers. And in failing, they also left some landowners without payment for timber they cut, left logs in the woods, left the job unfinished.

You seem to be looking at this only from your perspective. Again, look at it from the perspective of the people you want to hire you. A consulting forester's or a landowner's perspective. The forester might be thinking; if you have yet to get insurance, what other business aspects do you not have in place? Do you even have the money to buy the timber?  Do you have money for a several thousand dollar down payment? Can you do the bookkeeping necessary to keep your business going year after year?  Can you pay your bills on time, which means that you will not leave the forester or landowner in the lurch because your equipment was repossessed? Do you have the money to repair your skidder if it breaks?   If it does break, will you be able to get it repaired fast and get back on the job, or will it take weeks? Who will do your trucking? You? Can you repair your truck in a reasonable amount of time if it breaks? If you contract the trucking, is that guy dependable? You are throwing up red flags, and the forester, whose job it is to protect the landowner who hired him,  is feeling that you might not be able to handle the job from a business standpoint.

Sounds like you have a solid background in the woods.  Get the business end taken care of, be politely persistent, and you will start getting jobs.

Ken

Farmboy 96   When I first started looking for work on my own I ran into more than a few roadblocks.  As I gained experience and a reputation for doing good work jobs began to come out of the blue.  I still get excited every time a number shows up on my phone that I don't recognize.  Might just be a good job in the works. 

Without knowing a thing about you my first impression is that you will do just fine.  Rarely do I see an 18 year old write something that is for the most part grammatically correct and well worded.  I'm sure your work will speak for itself when given the opportunities.  Don't be shy to take on jobs that others are not willing to do.  Although you may not make much on those jobs it will help to build a relationship with landowners.   Don't get too put out when you lose a job that was promising.  Other opportunities will show up to individuals who are motivated.  Good luck
Lots of toys for working in the bush

Gadrock

Youth and energy....trust....many many bad loggers. I am a logger now but readily see that loggers are one step away from a gravel truck driver. Yes there a re a lot of us that are good decent folk but believe me we are not talking about the most reputable folks out there selling their wares. Well that is the way it is here. BUT there are some of the best most personable professional folk too. What I am getting at is which will you be? In only a few monthe the truth will be evident. Perserverance and integrity are a beginning. Deligence and a bit of luck are mixed in there too.
    Personally I am pulling for you. In a few months I want to ready how you overcame these obstacles. If you do your reputation will be intact. All of us here will be ready to pat you on the back. I am looking forward to that moment.

    Good luck.

David G

carry on
LT40 G18,   bent Cresent wrench,   broken timing light
Prentice 280 loader, Prentice 2432 skidder, Deere 643J fellerbuncher, Deere 648H skidder, Deere 650H Dozer

Bill_G

Could be any number of reasons , I have worked for many foresters over the past 40 years . 99% of them very good , but just because someone has a degree & license does not mean they are above board . Every now and then you find a forester that has their own crews and are only looking at their wallet . The first thing I always did before working with a new Forester was to check them out . If you get in with a Forester that has a bad reputation it will affect you also . You might want to check with some sawmills and see if they might have lots to cut , this is a good way to build your reputation and meet more Foresters .

OH logger

I have to jump in here. I started young too and I don't completely agree with Phorester. our forester jobs around here have to be paid in full before cutting any trees. with that being said as long as you do a good job in the woods to please the landowner AND forester, how you financially run your business is beside the point. sounds crude to say it like this but your book keeping skills are not their business, its yours. now how the job looks IS their business. I would try your butt off to please everyone, even the pains that want to make you struggle (and you will get them). when I was starting I took the jobs that no one else wanted and the jobs that were high graded and they left the junk, not all great money makers but my name got around and SLOWLY better jobs came in and it got better. but I did a lot of contract work which taught me a ton, and the jobs I "bought" was direct from the landowner and on shares(less risk) that were generous to the landowner. I also put a sign with my name at ALL jobs by the road to advertise. I had the sign made so it looks professional and I still use the sign to this day, it works. by no means am I tryin to be a smart ass but I have been were you are and would love to help. I didn't come from a logging background so many thought I was doomed from the start. with hard work and wise choices you'll do fine with some patience. stay safe out there
john

Farmboy 96

My book keeping skills are fine. You have to be somewhat good at handling money/bills if at seventeen yrs old you bust your butt off to by your own skidder in cash. Right know i have about 3k saved up why would i just starting out sign up for a liability insurance when i have no work. In my case right now I've told the LO about it and said if we come to an agreement and have this job I'm calling the insurance company that I checked with and signing up before we even sign a contract and she said it was fine and that she understood. Now I'm not CLP certified either which is probably another strike against me with the forester but last year during my Junior year of high school I took a forestry class at a local tech school and got my apprenticeship which is the same thing but we supposably didn't have enough cutting hours to get the actual certification. I took the same test as the professionals do to get CLP certified and passed it perfectly with a 100 and i still have the paperwork saying so. I don't know if that might help a little bit in persuading the forester that I do know/have the proper skills to complete the job both physically and business wise.

Farmboy 96

With the trucking end of it I have one of the most respected and loyal loggers in my area doing the job. The guy doing the trucking has worked with this forester before and they get along fine. The man trucking has known me all my life and also has no problem with me either. I put up a couple loads on the landing call him that night and the next day he's there to pick it up. The loads are going under his contract at the local pulp mills but mine at all log yards/sawmills.

eichenberg93

Farmboy 96
I have been reading all your post from when you started posting here on the forum. It sounds a lot like when me and my twin brother started 3 years ago. We started looking for wood to cut in the last few months of high school. We looked more for pine because there was a good local market and compared to hardwood its easier to find and there was only 2 sorts and had a good idea what you could pay for both before you started. It took a while to cut just one 7 cord load of wood. It was a place to start and on some pieces of timber we went "collage" did not make much but learned a lot more then money could buy ;) For us we never worked with local foresters due to the fact that all the stumpage was due before a single stick of wood was cut. At that time we didn't have the means to  pay that kind of money. It worked for us to pay as we cut it by the cord. A lot of the lots were in the area of 40-100 cords and for most of local outfits there just wasn't the volume to move equipment to cut it.
We knew right from the beginning it was going to be a hard road to go down and to just get our name out into the area. The first year from a business stand point was very difficult. It got better the year after. As long as you can look back a year ago and see where you have gained something from a business stand point(equipment, contacts, reputation, etc.) I feel that means a lot at the end of the day,  We looked out and stopped at a lot of houses to find lots to cut. for us it was about 1 out of every 3-4 places that we found something. Overtime we started having people contact us about cutting some wood.
Now we are too busy with wood to cut and for us it is a very good feeling to have. We are starting to get more equipment so we can do a more efficient job and produce a larger quantities in a timely manner. It a lot longer of a post I was trying to write but I hope it help out in some way or another. Its always nice to see some else in our age group that is motivated to start logging. Its a hard business to get a foot in the door but it is well worth it.   

beenthere

Farmboy 96
A thought that may work in your favor, and maybe because you are in a family with woodlands, is to join the SWOAM (Small Woodland Owners Assoc of Maine)  http://www.swoam.org/

Maybe look into when and where their functions such as field days, etc. as places to meet folks and rub elbows with them. There may be other organizations that come to mind as well. Being here on the Forestry Forum is one you have touched already.

Another thought reading your posts, is that you may be a little doubtful in your own mind given that you mention "young, and needing help getting started". Try to shed some of those hidden feelings and take this bull by the horns. Having this meeting with LO and forester this week is a good start. Keep your cool and don't try to over-power the situation, but stand firm in your belief that you can do this and that you are confident that the LO will be happy with your results.

I wish you well, and would like to see more young men (and women) have the confidence and accomplishments that you have at this point in your life.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

so il logger

Farmboy

I come from a logging family, was raised up in it. I am not going to write a long post but will tell you the best way to get a foot in the door is take some contract work from a local mill. Do everything they expect and then some, be polite and friendly to landowners and the foreman alike. Do not get agitated easy or at all around them and it will pay off. Trust me get insurance, especially personal injury and be licensed and bonded if that exist's there. Not all loggers are crooks or whatever, make a good name for yourself and take pride in protecting the wood's for a future generation. That's what it is all about afterall, someday another young guy will need timber to harvest  :)

terry f

   Does your dad have friends, or friends of friends that might need something cut? My advise would be to get a job in town and do this as a side job until you have a track record with a few good looking lots, and happy customers.

plasticweld

Reading through the posts FarmBoy I only want to add one thing that is not mentioned and it is the key to being successful as a logger.

It is  not Foresters and being able to work with them, it is not bookkeeping skills either and in reality it is not even being the best operator or cutter out there. All of that stuff helps.

Being able to buy timber is what separates guys who log for a living and guys who make money logging.  A Forester has to hustle a job just like you do, search the woods track down the landowner and make a deal.  That is the job of a successful logger as well.  The deals you make and the price you pay for timber are the difference between this being,  a lot work and little pay and being a good business.

I personally will not bid on timber, as far as I am concerned once a job is up for bid you are now in the process of seeing for how little you can work for.  One other poster mentioned working for a mill which in reality is the equivalent of seeing for how cheap you can log for.  I have worked for mills, made every mistake out there you can make many times over.

I hustle my own wood and I hustle a lot of it. I hire the Forester to work for me to mark if I need too, find lines when needed and help with any permits.  The key is when needed.

I consider myself successful today because I make good money logging when few seem to be able.  I wanted you to know that your ability as a salesman trump all other skills.  You have the basics in skills, you will never ever stop learning how to be better at the craft.  The best logger in the world without the ability to put together a good deal with a land owner will just be the hardest working guy out there.

Just so you know I am often a guy other loggers grumble about.  I pay cash up front, I am not shy about buying land and all, I seem to be able to land jobs others don't, all without the help of foresters or sawmills. If you are lucky and successful, people are always going  say something negative about you.  I personally hope some day you are that guy.  Keep swinging for every good deal you miss there are five waiting for you to be found

BargeMonkey

 Everyone has hit the nail on the head on each aspect. Find someone to sub contract too, do that for a bit till you have your feet under you. This is a slow process, believe me i wanted to have it all overnight. Good luck and hopefully you find some decent work.

thecfarm

I myself have a logger that cuts my land,George Merrill,you must have heard of him. It's hard to be out on your own,unless you have years behind you. It takes time to get your name out there. When going to check on jobs,dress clean,walking the lot alone or with the land owner, know where the property lines are. Ask them where they would like the landing,keep that neat and clean too. That is just about what most people will judge your job on. Lay down some hay when you are done. Don't leave cut offs in sight of the road. Good luck to you.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Ron Wenrich

One thing to consider when going to the meeting on Friday is to do a test area.  Let the forester mark it and they let you cut on their terms.  That way the forester and landowner hasn't committed the whole process to you.  It allows you to get your feet wet with this forester.  When you remove all doubts, then they can mark another block.  It also helps in your cash flow where you don't need huge timber payments. 

The most successful loggers I've known are the ones that are best at marketing timber.  It doesn't matter if they buy from a consultant or from the landowner.  They can make money on any type of job, because they know their markets.  You will need to be constantly looking for better markets.  Never become complacent.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Farmboy 96

Yes I know of George Merrill he is actually a distant cousin of mine. I offered to do a trial run with the LO and going to suggest it to the forester. The front half of the property is pretty much all low grade hardwood firewood, pulp and a few pallet logs. The back of it has some nice big pine and oak. I offered that maybe just give me a small plot say five acres thats on the front half of the property to cut and if they don't like my work then I will pull right out and they won't have to hear from me again.
I actually got a call earlier this morning from a man who lives about thirty minutes away from me and saw one of my business cards and wondered if Id be willing to pull out quiet a bit of firewood for him (25-30 crds) so I guess I'm starting to get some small business.

Corley5

Be patient.  Rome wasn't built in a day.  While you're being patient further your education.  Take some business management and natural resource classes at the local community college and get your official CLP.  What you've got is nice but you need to get the real thing.  You need what's recognized at the professional level.  Don't quit learning.  Stay on top of it.
Burnt Gunpowder is the Smell Of Freedom

Phorester


Quote from: BargeMonkey on May 26, 2015, 07:25:41 AM
Everyone has hit the nail on the head on each aspect. Find someone to sub contract too, do that for a bit till you have your feet under you. This is a slow process, believe me i wanted to have it all overnight. Good luck and hopefully you find some decent work.

A pretty good summary. Get set up as a logging business, get some experience, and you will make it.





beenthere

Along the lines mentioned by Corely5, look at the events scheduled on the SWOAM calendar in this link. Looks to be a lot for more education as your time permits (in addition to meeting and knowing folks).
http://www.swoam.org/Events/Calendar.aspx
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

BargeMonkey

 Last time i took a silviculture class i heard nothing but crying from alot of guys over 50, wanted nothing to do with regulation, foresters, continued education. Change is coming to this industry, stay ahead of it, im forced into MSHA, USCG training and TLC every year which eats 7-21 days a yr, dont like it but its the way it is. While you have the time take advantage of it and get everything you can, ME is a little diff than NY but the list of TLC guys down here is short, once youve got a decent reputation the work finds you.
Another thing, and like Corley said Rome wasnt built in a day. Look how many guys on here, or loggers i know in general work somewhere fulltime and log on the side, older machines break and trying to feed yourself and cut and turn wrenches is hard, i dont know your situation but why not jump into the snake pit slowly.

Corley5

An understanding, patient woman with a good paying job with benefits helps tremendously  ;) ;D :)  And that's no joke  :)
Burnt Gunpowder is the Smell Of Freedom

lopet

Lucky you !!!!!!!!!  8) 8)            And that's no joke  :)
Make sure you know how to fall properly when you fall and as to not hurt anyone around you.
Also remember, it's not the fall what hurts, its the sudden stop. !!

Ed_K

Ed K

John Mc

Farmboy -

Look at it from the forester's point of view: He probably has loggers that he works with regularly. He knows what kind of work they do, and can match their skills to the jobs he has.  In some respects, it doesn't matter how good you are. He doesn't KNOW how good you are, and he can't check on your past jobs if the work you have done is all on your family's land (is there really any chance your mother would tell him you stink at this?).

You may be great, but he's taking a risk putting you on one of his clients' land. It's going to be tough getting over the hump with him. One thing that might help is references. You've mentioned a couple of guys you know that seem to know him (the guy you'll use for trucking, for example). Have any of them seen your work? Would they be willing to be listed as a reference by you?  A good word to him from someone who has some idea of your skills as a logger would help. Also, a good word from someone who knows what kind of person you are would also help. The more he knows and respects these references, the more likely their comments are to open doors for you.

I know when we were hiring at the wire mill where I used to work, we always like hiring folks who grew up on a farm. They generally did what it took to get the job done right, and had a wider range of skills than some applicants.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

Ron Scott

Yes, references should surely help when the forester does not know you or is familiar with your work.
~Ron

furltech

Quote from: Corley5 on May 26, 2015, 03:37:11 PM
An understanding, patient woman with a good paying job with benefits helps tremendously  ;) ;D :)  And that's no joke  :)
This is probably what has kept me above board on more than once when i was starting out .

nas

Better to sit in silence and have everyone think me a fool, than to open my mouth and remove all doubt - Napoleon.

Indecision is the key to flexibility.
2002 WM LT40HDG25
stihl 066
Husky 365
1 wife
6 Kids

luvmexfood

Farmboy,

Did you have the meeting and how did it go?
Give me a new saw chain and I can find you a rock in a heartbeat.

Farmboy 96

It went alright. Talked with the landowner and forester both. We walked the property and the LO and forester talked about what she wanted done and what the Forester thought should be done. The LO farm manager that she hired also walked with us. Once we walked everything the forester started giving her references of people she should use to do the job. The LO told him she was only going to have one person do the job. He said who's that and she pointed right to me. Found out that somehow she knew my grandparents even though they have been gone for 15 years and she's not from around here.After a lot more talking I realized that this forester is actually alright he is just a little odd. He said that he is willing to work with anyone regardless of age as long as they sign a contract because then your held liable for any damages.
The line is marked out by the LO and forester already with bright pink ribbon. All the wood will be dragged out and pushed up along the edge of the field were the backswath is, I'm responsible for haying and seeding it in the end and making sure it's clean of all debris. The best part is there is no time limit she said she doesn't care if I cut 1 load this week or 10 she doesn't care she just wants a little money here and their. I'm moving in next Monday or Tuesday depending on the weather so I'm graduating Sunday and working Monday. 80 Acres will keep me going probably until Thanksgiving time. We've already settled on stumpage to.
Pulp $13ton for pine & mixed softwood, mixed hardwood is $9, poplar is $22 Firewood $35/crd all sawlogs 50/50 after trucking Veneer she gets 60%after trucking. The lot has a lot of firewood on the front half but lots of big pine and oak in the back with a nice section of Rock Maple. 

lopet

Make sure you know how to fall properly when you fall and as to not hurt anyone around you.
Also remember, it's not the fall what hurts, its the sudden stop. !!

mad murdock

Congratulations fwrmboy!! Way to go. Work smart, and  work safe :) we will want to see pics when you get underway. 
Turbosawmill M6 (now M8) Warrior Ultra liteweight, Granberg Alaskan III, lots of saws-gas powered and human powered :D

thecfarm

Have not even started and you are 5 months behind all ready.  ;D
Get some signs made up to put out by the road.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Ianab

Good stuff.

I suspect the Forester is simply recommending loggers he knows will do a good job, which is natural enough. Do a good job here, he will see that, and you can be on his list as well.
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

John Mc

Great. Do a GREAT job on this one, and he won;t be so hesitant to use you in the future. I'd make a point of touching base with the forester as work progresses and asking if he has any concerns or things he would like to see done. You sound like someone who will do a good job, but the forester will probably appreciate your asking.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

treeslayer2003

Quote from: Farmboy 96 on May 31, 2015, 03:32:01 PM
It went alright. Talked with the landowner and forester both. We walked the property and the LO and forester talked about what she wanted done and what the Forester thought should be done. The LO farm manager that she hired also walked with us. Once we walked everything the forester started giving her references of people she should use to do the job. The LO told him she was only going to have one person do the job. He said who's that and she pointed right to me. Found out that somehow she knew my grandparents even though they have been gone for 15 years and she's not from around here.After a lot more talking I realized that this forester is actually alright he is just a little odd. He said that he is willing to work with anyone regardless of age as long as they sign a contract because then your held liable for any damages.
The line is marked out by the LO and forester already with bright pink ribbon. All the wood will be dragged out and pushed up along the edge of the field were the backswath is, I'm responsible for haying and seeding it in the end and making sure it's clean of all debris. The best part is there is no time limit she said she doesn't care if I cut 1 load this week or 10 she doesn't care she just wants a little money here and their. I'm moving in next Monday or Tuesday depending on the weather so I'm graduating Sunday and working Monday. 80 Acres will keep me going probably until Thanksgiving time. We've already settled on stumpage to.
Pulp $13ton for pine & mixed softwood, mixed hardwood is $9, poplar is $22 Firewood $35/crd all sawlogs 50/50 after trucking Veneer she gets 60%after trucking. The lot has a lot of firewood on the front half but lots of big pine and oak in the back with a nice section of Rock Maple.
good deal! ask his opinion on things even if you don't like or need it, it may help you later.
prices on the saw and veneer sound good, pulp and fire wood seem high to me but we don't have much pulp market here.

Farmboy 96

Gotta get me 1 of those fancy phones that actually take a picture. I'm still using an old 2008 US cellular POS which doesn't take pictures. But I can't wait until next week.

thecfarm

Gotta get a web page too. Ask Jeff on here,I hear he does mighty fine work.  ;D Take some before and after pictures,pictures of your equipment,wildlife,flowers,spring,summer,fall pictures too,sunrise,sunset,winter.  :)
Keep the yard clean,cut offs need to go back into the woods or firewood. The yard is just about all that most people will see. One of my hobbies is walking through a logging job.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Ron Scott

Yes, keep communications open with the forester so he becomes aware of your "good work" as a new timber producer and are placed on his list of references for future jobs.
~Ron

Ken

Do the job that is expected of you and you will have a feather in your hat.  Remember that this time of year requires additional care to ensure that future crop trees are not damaged due to the bark being very sensitive if doing a partial harvest.   Best of luck and keep us informed.
Lots of toys for working in the bush

Phorester


Good news!  The first job is the hardest to get.  Do it right and more will come your way.

Ed_K

 Congrat's on Graduating AND getting your foot in the door.
Ed K

brianJ

This is mostly a post script by now and I have enjoyed, learned a lot and mostly agreed with all the posts even some that seemed opposing.    I would like to point out a few things for you going forward.     Biggest one being your age.   You have already experienced people's perception of your age workingagainst you.   Honestly I would be that way myself against someone I didnt know. who was both young and starting out.

  But you have also experienced your age working for you though you may not have recognized it as such.  You have an aquantince  that sounds like your getting preferential trucking from.   The LO also could have easily gone with the bidding process or  wanted someone who could do the job in much less time or a forwrder not skidder or only in winter.    Instead she specifically chose you.  Both of these people had a personal connection to you which is precisely & exactly how you and the forestor started off crosswise :D :D   He didn't know you.

Age working for you and against you will eventually fade away and all you have left is reputation and in a rural area with a small population like central western Maine your reputation affects more than just you.   It affects others in your family and who knows?  Maybe many decades from now your reputaion will impact your grandchildren 15 years after your death.   Reputation at this point is worth more than profit.

Lastly get back in touch with that guy with the small firewood pulling job.   You didnt like the forestor doing that to you.  Dont do that to someone else.   These small jobs in your area might be a very profitable niche.    You got a great start and your success wont be just your already considerable experience, your mechanical aptitude or your market knowledge.   Each is important and all three will be formidable.   But more important yet is to be humble and self controlled and meticulously scruple for of such is a reputation built upon.


John Mc

If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

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