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Considerations of the skid steer in forest maintenance..

Started by chain, January 16, 2011, 09:23:15 AM

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chain

I've long desired a heavy piece of equipment to do all my forest maintenance, requirements are:

1. safety
2. hi-lift capabilities
3. tracked
4. light dozing[water holes and such]
5. clearing, and forest road maintenace[pushing scraping]
6. water bar and filling
7. occasional log skidding
8. ease of manuvering and transporting
9. multiple attachments

So, any of you fellows with extensive experience with tracked skid-steer loaders the question is...Will I have chosen the best and most practical machine for the duties listed?

Jeff

You might read through this thread.
https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,39107.0.html

Its not exactly the same question, but a lot of it is applicable

Having ran a skidsteer myself in the woods operation, a bobcat with a fellerbuncher, all I can say is you better have another piece of equipment capable of flipping the skidsteer back right side up.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

barbender

I know the bobcat shears spent a lot of time tipped over, they are not well suited to that. But for one machine that can do a passable job of all the other items chain lists, a skid steer definately should be considered. Compact tractors are the other obvious choice, it kind of depends what you will use it for the most. If you are doing a lot more dirt work than skidding, I'd say skid steer. Skid steers don't work very well for skidding, there are 2 issues- 1. Low ground clearance. 2. You have to skid backwards, it's not that great of a way to do things. I've used my skid steer to skid probably 250 cords of wood, all in reverse. Even keeping my stumps low, getting hung up is pretty common. Another thing to remember is rubber tracks don't do well in the woods, they get tore up pretty quick. If you are building and staying on trails, they are great, you just don't want to wreck them.
Too many irons in the fire

CX3

If it werent for skidding the logs I would say skidsteer.  The only other option besides reverse would be grapple for the front and buck the logs at 8 or 10 and pack them out one at a time.  I personally would consider a good 4wd tractor before a skidsteer.  You could get a tractor with the same quik attach as bobcat.  But you lose on the tracked option.  Why is tracked important to you? Traction or compaction or both?
John 3:16
You Better Believe It!

Cedarman

We use Cat 287 with 20" shear.  Never tipped it over, but don't work steep ground at all. Plus cedars are bottom heavy.  I have cut a bunch of big 50' cedars that had to be realeased once they were cut.  They could have stood the Cat on its nose if you didn't let go.  Working sideways on hills is not good as there is a tendency for the tracks to come off if you get a stick or stump in the way.  It is tough to beat one in the log yard.  Very important to keep mud out of tracks if it is going to freeze at night.  They go where wheeled skid steers fear to tread.
I am in the pink when sawing cedar.

Holmes

I use an ASV 4520 in the woods for most everything except skidding. It is to hard to see the back end of the ASV when backing up.  The tracks allow it to go most anywhere , it has 17" of ground clearance and the grapple bucket will pick up 4  16" 12' logs at once. This is a big skid steer 115 hp, I think it is the same as a Cat 287. It is not good around large rocks and boulders but what is and the tracks do tear up the ground. Holmes
Think like a farmer.

plasticweld

I made my living using a skid steer in the woods. A new Holland LS 180 that had a set of Goring tracks I had welded rebar on the cleats so it would give me good traction.

I built and still have a 20 ton hydraulic winch that runs off of the skid steer. It is mounted on with its own arch and can carry up to 300 ft of cable. I can pick the unit up with the forks and quickly connect it to the machine. I used when needed a large snatch block that I could mount in a large tree to let me pull wood out of some of the deep ravines around here.

I also built a large back bumper for the skid steer so I could skid logs with, I weld hooks to it so that I could back up to a log push the bucket down to lower the rear frame and the hook the logs, raised my bucket "full of dirt" which then lifted the trees about a foot off of the ground. I had a 9000 lb electric winch mounted on the back to help draw in any logs that were just out of reach. I could pull about ¾ of a cord of wood with ease.

To move logs at greater distances I built a 8 wheel pulp trailer that is pulled by the skid steer. In places where I winched the logs out of a ravine I pilled up the trees where it was flat and then used the forks to load the pulp trailer which I still have. I could carry about 1200 board feet of hardwood or about three cords of wood with the trailer. Once the trailer was loaded I hooked my front hydraulic winch  back on the machine and then backed under the trailer hitch and could go just about anywhere with out fear of getting stuck. I could winch either forward or backward and because of the floatation of the skid steer and trailer I was able to navigate some pretty extreme ground.

I did use it to do my road work and water bars, with the winch I could pull in a log truck, I could also load most trailers with logs I had cut if they did not come with there own loader. I could also move all of my equipment with my one ton truck with a 20 foot trailer

I made enough with this set up to pay for a skidder. I kept the skid steer until just recently having sold that and bought a second skidder. I have one guy who has expressed some interest in my equipment but I still have it.

I do not seem to be able to post pictures with enough pixels so that you can see any detail. If you send me your email I would be happy to send you some pictures so you can get a better idea of what I built so you can copy it if you're interested. I was extremely happy with how the set up worked and would not change anything if doing it over.

If one of the other board members can post the pictures I would also be happy to email them to you so you could get them posted...Bob

barbender

Sounds like you made it work plasticweld, but I think you probably have enough ingenuity do make a go with anything. I had some of the same ideas, but not enough time or follow through. I did make a grapple for mine, I copied the Valby skid steer grapple. It is very handy, I still use it all the time, even though it was a "prototype" and pretty rough fabrication.
Too many irons in the fire

Bobus2003

Alot of the guys around me that run skid-steers (Mostly Masticating Heads) have built winch assemblies that are mounted to the rear of the machine.. Something i have always wanted to do.. but when it comes to skidding thats why i have the JD440. Though it would be helpful when you get yourself stuck to get a pull out

chain

Really a interesting discussion and we appreciate all the comments. But as I listed safety is #1 always; most of our timber is hilly terrain, rocks, boulders, gravel, down to good 'ol silty clay in the bottoms. We had a d-4 cat for a while but the bang and rattle of steel clashing on rock wasn't good, and use of the dozer was limited. This one reason we wanted rubber tracks. Right now, guess we're leaning back to the good 'ol wide track farm tractor; initial use of the skidsteer would be justified but 'off-road' duties could become dangerous . 50-50.

ely

i dont know how i ever got by with out my bobcat, i think it would be a bit better with tracks but i get by without them.

Bobus2003

Quote from: chain on January 18, 2011, 09:40:58 AM
Really a interesting discussion and we appreciate all the comments. But as I listed safety is #1 always; most of our timber is hilly terrain, rocks, boulders, gravel, down to good 'ol silty clay in the bottoms. We had a d-4 cat for a while but the bang and rattle of steel clashing on rock wasn't good, and use of the dozer was limited. This one reason we wanted rubber tracks. Right now, guess we're leaning back to the good 'ol wide track farm tractor; initial use of the skidsteer would be justified but 'off-road' duties could become dangerous . 50-50.


Have heard the rubber tracks don't like Stumps and logging debris

barbender

They don't like rocks, stumps, anything sharp or abrasive.
Too many irons in the fire

plasticweld

Quote from: chain on January 18, 2011, 09:40:58 AM
Really a interesting discussion and we appreciate all the comments. But as I listed safety is #1 always; most of our timber is hilly terrain, rocks, boulders, gravel, down to good 'ol silty clay in the bottoms. We had a d-4 cat for a while but the bang and rattle of steel clashing on rock wasn't good, and use of the dozer was limited. This one reason we wanted rubber tracks. Right now, guess we're leaning back to the good 'ol wide track farm tractor; initial use of the skidsteer would be justified but 'off-road' duties could become dangerous . 50-50.


I can not honestly think that any place a D4 would struggle with would be good country for any farm tractor; "dont care how wide it is" The skid steer is tough to almost impossible to tip over, it has zero radius turn and a real low center of gravity.

I was happy with how my machine worked with steel tracks, the combination of rubber tires and steel still rides better than a bulldozer that is all metal. I can not think of any place I have worked where rubber would have been a better alternative

sjfarkas

The best all around machine is a tracked skid steer.  The problem is if you can afford the machine the attachments will break you.  I think a root grapple is extremely handy and have skidded from the back of the machine, but didn't have enough weight in front to pull efficiently.  I've done some clearing with one and packed 33' logs multiple at a time carried stumps to the slash pile, etc.  I think that if you had the bolt on steel cleats for the rubber tracks your rubber would last longer due to less slipping of the tracks to move on the slick debris when on steep ground.
Always try it twice, the first time could've been a fluke.

barbender

The whole forest machine industry wants to decrease the ground pressure their machines put on the forest floor, and rubber tracks are the perfect way to do that if low ground pressure is your only concern. Unfortunately, they don't hold up in forest conditions, that's why you only see 1- Rubber tires with chains 2- rubber bogey tires with steel over tire tracks 3-Full steel undercarriages. Rubber tracks don't do all that well crossing say, a greasy log. You get hung up on little things like that all the time. ASV rubber undercarriages are very low impact, but they are less durable too. The rigid frame rubber track uc every other skid steer manufacturer use tear stuff up. These things are built for muddy, greasy construction sites, not the woods. If your woods were tough for a d4 cat, you don't want a rubber tracked skid steer, unless 300 hour track life suits you.
Too many irons in the fire

sjfarkas

track life is all how the machine is run.  just like any piece of equipments life span the operater can make or break a machine.
Always try it twice, the first time could've been a fluke.

barbender

I don't care how good you are, if you run rubber tracks over rocks and stumps you're going to tear them up. Yes, it will happen faster with a novice in the machine, a pro might get away from some of the stupid mistakes, but they are just not made for the woods.
Too many irons in the fire

sjfarkas

Always try it twice, the first time could've been a fluke.

okmulch

I run rubber tracks on our Cat skidsteers and the tracks that are on them have over 1500 hours. That is the manufactures suggested hourly target. We carry heavy loads of trees over stumps and all other types of woody debris. We spin on hills, cross ditches and are probably as hard as any one on these machines. We do have occasional bogeys break and we weld them and go on.

Manufactures are making the newer skid steers more forestry friendly. They have reversible fans on radiators more guards and more underbelly plates.
Rotochopper b66 track, #2 Rotochopper b66 track, woodmizer lt40, CAT 277b, CAT 268b, CAT 287c, CAT 277c, CAT299d2, CAT299d3, CAT 299d3, Volvo 70e,volvo70f, volvo90f

barbender

Quote from: sjfarkas on January 23, 2011, 10:11:48 AM
Barbender, I guess we can agree to disagree. 
I hope I'm not coming off as a know it all, I'm just speaking from my personal experience ;) I will say I haven't used a track machine in a strictly forestry enviroment like sjfarkas and okmulch have, my experience is more in construction with the rubber track machines. But we occasionally do property maintainence on company woodlots, and it is never good for our rubber track machines. We get about 1000 hrs on a set, and they are in tough shape when they get that far. We run a case CTL450 and a Cat 287 with asv undercarriage. We do a lot of asphalt and concrete removal, that type of work is about as abusive on these machines as it gets. Between the time in the woods and the concrete removals, that is when the chunks of tracks come up missing and traction lugs come off :( I like my Case 1845 rubber tire with chains on it in the woods better, the main problem is low ground clearance. My .02 ;)
Too many irons in the fire

Bandmill Bandit

I haven't waded in to this one yet but I will here. The first skid steer I was on was a Case 1830 in 1974. Since then I have owned; 1830(3200 hrs), 1845 (sold to my Dad at 11,000 hours), 1845C x2 (7800 hrs and 3400 hrs) operated bobcat 943 (about 1600 hrs) Cat 246B ( about 600 hrs) Cat 287B MTV (about 1200 hrs)
Have demo-ed Gehl, Tacauchi, Deere, Mustang and a couple of other off breed brands all on factory tracks. operated a few of the wheeled units on track conversions of various types both steal and rubber.

A skid steer on tracks of any type is generally better than wheels but not always the case with after market conversions.

Favourite was Case till the Cats arrived on the seen. right now you would have a hard time selling me a Case at any price.

Operator is the KEY element of a skid steer type machine and the single most important factor in making or breaking the bank on this type of machine. Skid steers are based on much the same principle as a regular cat.  Great "cat skinners" ain't made, they are born! same applies to a skid steer operator and all other equipment operators for that matter. A good sawyer can be a good operator of most any thing that is made of steal and resembles some sort of toy we played with as kids. :D
 
In well over a 1000 hours of bush work on a Cat 287B I did not tear a track! I am not saying it wouldn't happen to me and I know as those hours climb the deck is stacking against me. I just hope it is one that is wore out and needs to be replaced instead of a new one. (when I get the 299C that is my next equipment purchase on the list)

Pound for pound of everything about them you cant get a piece of a equipment that is more versatile and useful. At least not yet! treat with the respect they deserve, keep em clean and WELL maintained and they will serve you very well.

The first most important factor is "slower" and steady wins the race on these machines and as you learn and as you gain experience you will learn WHEN to be fast and when to be slow and steady. On these machines it is about cycle time and making every move count. more complete cycles per week is what delivers more product what ever your product may be. NOT cycles per hour.

MOST common maintenance mistake; CHEAP grease and OVER greasing. I will only use high grade silicon grease NEVER grease to exposure, only till I hear the grease seal squeak and on every other fuel fill unless loading abrasive material then every fuel fill.

MOST common operational mistake; wheels OFF the ground. If your front wheels are in the air most of the time you are danger to everything/one around you and only using a very small portion of the machines capability. If your back wheels are in the air most of the time you are pushing the machine past its limits and will likely break something. ALL skid steers are designed to work with all wheels or the full length of track on the ground. The balance factor on most of them is between 60% and 65% no load on rear and 35% to 40% no load on front. Most have a place to add weights up to (300 lbs) at the back to adjust this factor to meet specific operator preference and operating conditions. The machine is designed to transfer weight to ALL FOUR wheels or full length of the track as much as possible. To do that it needs ALL FOUR wheels / full track on the ground as much as possible.      

Learn to operate the machine at 3/4 to full throttle as the hydraulic system is designed to be the the speed control system! REASON? When you get in to trouble with one of these machines you need power and you need it fast. If you are running less then 3/4 throttle a fast reaction on the controls raises the probability  of engine stall exponentially as the engine RPM drops and you are heading for potentially a serious accident that could probably have been avoided.

IMHO you can not put to much power in these machines. But only those that respect and understand how and when to use that power will understand what I am saying. To gain this respect and experience start slow and work steady. When the machine starts to "buck" let go of the controls and grab the cage or the safety bar. If it starts to nose over drop the loader arms post haste.  Back up hills and if you ever start to get over a bank point the bucket down the slope and drop the bucket so it just slides over the dirt.

WEAR YOUR SEAT BELT AT ALL TIMES EVEN IF ALL YOUR DOING IS MOVING IT TO FUEL UP.      

To bad Case lost the quality and the over all user friendly machine they had when they dropped the 1800 series line up. Oh well! Cat filled the Void very well.
 
Skilled Master Sawyer. "Skilled labour don't come cheap. Cheap labour dont come skilled!
2018 F150 FX4, Husqvarna 340, 2 Logright 36 inch cant hooks and a bunch of stuff I built myself

barbender

I love the case 1800 series, dead simple and bullet proof. I wouldn't say case lost their quality, they are definately not as easy to work on now. Our case 90xt and now 450CT are everything in Quality that a cCat machine is, in fact our Cat 287 isn't all that impressive as far as quality is concerned. I did get to demo a Cat 299 just a bit last fall, that is a nice machine. A lot of power and really well laid out for the operator, the full cab on the Case seems to be an afterthought where the Cat is very well laid out, nice big door, easy access. I totally agree that the operator will make or break these machines, but we get paid a lot of money per hour to make those company machines produce. They don't like us pussyfooting around, just get in get it done and if it gets broke they fix it. If these were my machines I would baby them more.
Too many irons in the fire

Bandmill Bandit

Hey bar bender pretty much I agree with you. What I really hate about the new case from the XT out is the way they have the controls set up. i don't like the fact that the bucket and loader arm actions changed from wrist twist to a whole side way motion from the elbow. not sure if they have fixed it on the CT and 400 series. I really like Cats control lay out and responsiveness along with the torque, visibility, lift capacity etc. If the new case machines have turned the controls to REAL wrist action joy sticks maybe i will have to try one.
Skilled Master Sawyer. "Skilled labour don't come cheap. Cheap labour dont come skilled!
2018 F150 FX4, Husqvarna 340, 2 Logright 36 inch cant hooks and a bunch of stuff I built myself

barbender

Yeah, Bandmill Bandit- I know what you mean about the controls in the XT series. Our CT450 has electro-hyd. joysticks, in the ISO (cat, asv) control pattern. I like the controls in my 1845 just fine, but when I was in one 12+ hours a day they would wear your arms out with the long throw they have. The joysticks are nice.
Too many irons in the fire

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