The ugly part

[Good Feller]

So what do you guys charge?  What kind of a commission do you get on timber sales?... what if you go through all the work of marking and advertising and the timber doesn't sell? Then what?
What about mileage? 
How much would you charge a landowner if he just wanted you to walk through his timber with him and give good advice, point out trees that could be harvested, improvement ideas, etc.   
What would you charge to do general chainsaw work?....cutting trees out of fence rows, felling small yard trees, etc. 
What about larger more dangerous trees,,, like a great big oak in a farmer's pasture that he wants cut down,,,, what's a fair price?  Thanks! 8)

[Ron Wenrich]

First, you have to decide if you're the buyer or the seller of the wood.  If you're doing forestry work and are going to sell the timber, then you should see what guys are charging in your area.  Around here its 15%, and I consider that too high when marking high quality wood.  If you're buying the timber, then you pay for the marking. 

All expenses come out of your pocket until there is an income generated, either from the sale of timber or logs.  You need a contract with the landowner.  If the timber doesn't sell, then you have a certain amount of days to move it.  If you can't sell it, is that the landowner's fault?  Are you advising on value?

As for the walk through, I've always done that for free, no matter if I was acting as a procurement forester or a consultant.  I've done them both.  Its the same as any salesman does.  A car salesman doesn't charge anything to show you a car.

Chainsaw work is a little different.  But, you need to have liability and disability insurance.  $1 million in liability is a good starting point.  Milage should be covered with your hourly rates.  Set them up with what's normal in your area.  I'm assuming this is cut and leave type of work.  If you're getting the timber for resale, then its a different story.  The timber pays for your time.  Fencerows often have lots of trash metal.

[WDH]

Down this way, Forestry Consultants typically have received 10% of the sales price as a commission. 

[Texas Ranger]

In Texas I give a walk though for free, talking with and trying to figure out what the land owners goals are, after that, it is a percentage.  If a sale is not make, my contract with the landowner includes a marking charge. 

You have to decide if you are the buyer or assisting in the sale.  I advise landowners that if they use my service or not, the buyer should not be the marker.

[woodtroll]

South ILL. it is 10%-8% on sales.
If it is a no sale, make sure you are covered at a fair rate. With it being your 1st sale the owner is taking the risk. You are learning, It would be fair to insure that you cover your paint, gas and some time.
Saw work is hourly, unless your getting the wood.
Insurance $1million is good, it is for you, your wife's peace of mind, your kids college, and your client's peace. It seems expensive at first but the first time you just miss getting hit it will seem cheap.

Now for a question. I have been reading your other posts. You seem to be just starting so please take this for what it is. Have you looked at this woods as a forester? I mean the whole forest, not just from the aspect of a sale. This seems to be an opportunity to be a forester or a timber broker. Which do you want to do?
As a forester... Before you sell a stick you should be figuring what the forest needs combined with what the landowner wants. Does the landowner just want the cash? What are their goals for the forest? Do they want to pass it to their kids? what will be there after the sale? This needs to be planned before a sale.

Rereading this, it seems preachy, but once the trees are cut they are cut.

Good luck developing your career. I hope you come to love it as much as I love mine.

[Ron Wenrich]

I wish there were more foresters like woodtroll.  I've seen a lot of foresters who are better classified as timber brokers. 

[Ironwood]

Woodtroll,

Great advise. That what I would want someone to do for me as a property owner.

              Ironwood

[Good Feller]

Woodtroll,

I am planning to go on a walk through with the landowner this weekend to find out his objectives.  If I had to guess it is probably just the money.  Everyone asks what's their objectives.... I realize that is important, after all it is their ground.  OK, lets predict that Money is the objective and they are firm.  Then what?  How do you apply good forestry to that?

There is a fine line between good forestry and good economics.  I'm just trying to find that line.  If I leave the good stuff there is not enough incentive for a sale.   A logger has went through and marked this stand.  I think he marked anything and everything that he could get a dollar out of.  I'm going to suggest erasing some paint.  Every nice white oak has blue paint on it.  Once they're gone they are gone.  I want to leave some of them and I want to come up with a plan for increasing regeneration. 

It probably sounds like I don't know whether to be a forester or a buyer.  For this sale I'm the forester.  I'm not cutting anything.  Even if I was the buyer I'd cut trees and apply good forestry the best I could.  At least I'm a forester that can look through the eyes of the cutter.  I know a tree leaning over a fence doesn't mean it will fall on it.  I know a hazard situation when I see one.  For what I'm wanting to do I have to know how to cut trees.  It makes me laugh to know that 90% of the people I went to school with don't know how to operate a saw.  How are you suppose to perform TSI and make a real hands on difference if you can't? 

[Ron Scott]

The forester should advise the landowner on "good forestry" and practice it. Practice good ethics and not bad forestry. Remember that your name is attached to the completed job and provides an opportunity for future work depending upon how it appears to others.

I've walked away from jobs that I felt were "bad forestry" based on the landowners objectives. Often times the landowner was thankful that they followed the "good forestry" advise and put it into practice.

When not, there was usually someone that would take the job for the existing best trees. Such jobs still stand as poor expamples. ;)

If you have any experimental or research forests nearby, it might be a good experience to visit them and see the results of different management approaches.

[woodtroll]

We are talking a lot of hypothetical's... what if's.
Do not assume the goals of the landowner till you talk it over with them. The walk through is your opportunity to "sell" good forestry. Many of my landowners have not thought about what they want long term. They just think their forest is ready to be "timbered" the trees look big or a buyer offered X amount of $$$ so they should sell. Once you talk with them and show them what they have and what is developing, you find out they want more out of their forest. Most of my landowners want to leave the forest better then what they got it. Many want to pass it to kids or grand kids.

I am fully aware that there comes a time when the forest needs to make some money, pay the bills. Then you need to work him through the sale and insure the forest work is performed afterwards.
Good economics is not the same as good stewardship. It is one factor.  Each stand and owner is different. As a forester you cannot look at just one aspect. It is a balancing act with many factors.
Good luck with your walk through visit.

[Ed_K]

 I'm a logger, I have marked a few lots. I always try to understand what the landowner wants from their land. Even with times as hard as they are right now, I tell the owner thats only looking for $$$ that timber is low and if they can wait a little,that the trees are growing at 8% so todays price will increase down the road. I learned marking by working part time with a consulting forester, started doing cordwood cuts, then sale cuts. Always asking questions, my thinking was if I knew how they did it, I could better understand when bidding. I finally mark a lot for a harvest, only to find the owner didn't want to do it legally. Now when an owner call and asks me to do a harvest I tell them to get a consultant then call back. I don't have time to paint when I can be cutting. Cordwood is hot now, and its my motto "leave it better than you found it" ;) .

In Ma. you better have a degree if you call yourself a forester.

[ibseeker]

Here's a forest landowner perspective, which changes frequently:
Shortly after I purchased the property a State Forester came to my forest and put together a management plan. She also stated that you can't replace a conifer forest with a hardwood forest. That statement has been challenged by a consulting forester that I paid to walk the forest with me. Following the State Forester's lead, I proceeded to figure out which pine trees to plant. I asked questions here on the FF and I'm sure some eyebrows were raised based upon my ignorance. Next, I couldn't get any consulting foresters to handle the timber harvest. Too small, not enough profit margin, no thanks not interested....that's what the responses were. So I proceeded anyway with a local logger who I had gotten good references for. Ralph and his family did a great job and I'm happy with most everything they did. Here's where a forester could have really helped me. The after logging problems I am currently dealing with are culls and erosion on skidder trails. I should have had more culls dropped and better erosion bars cut across the trails. The CF who I paid to walk my forest with me stated that as best as he could determine, the loggers did a good job. I had hoped to hire him to help me develop a more detailed management plan but he wasn't interested. He said that after talking with me, he thought I had a good plan in mind....I sure fooled him, didn't I! Now I have a forest that needs proper handling and I'm still trying to figure out how to do that. The local office of state foresters have indicated that they are limited on what they can do with me because of conflicting with free enterprise (the paid consulting foresters). Their opinion was to help the quality trees develop and remove the other stuff that wasn't as valuable. I agree and that's what I'm planning on doing....once I figure out how to do that.
How does this concern this thread?
I believe that many private forest landowwners are somewhat ignorant of all of the issues concerning a forest. The trees have a value to the owner but as I was able to process the information given to me and incorporate it into my goals, that value changed. It will continue to change as I learn more. The money from the logging was not insignificant but it wasn't the reason I had it logged. Each person I consulted agreed that it was time for that pine to go, it wasn't going to get any better and more likely would decline in value from other facts.

Educating the forest landowner might be the most difficult challenge a Consulting Forester could face. 

[woodtroll]

"Educating the forest landowner might be the most difficult challenge a Consulting Forester could face. "

It should be the most important.

Planning should be in writing. Not just ideas in one's head. It sounds like your consultant dropped the ball. But on the other hand they might not want to sell you something they did not think you needed.

[ibseeker]

I agree with educating the owner. I just think it might be difficult. It wasn't my intention to slight the Consulting Forester who walked my forest. I believe that like you said, he didn't think he had much to offer me. He did help me to understand more about the different stages that my forest was going through. He also offered insight about epicormic growth and how the logging would affect the "soft" edges of the forest. Most importantly, he corrected the misunderstanding that the State Forester had created regarding replacing a pine forest with hardwoods. He showed me the hardwood regeneration from the stumps that would replace the pine forest if I helped it along. I appreciated the information and time that I spent with him. I should have taken some notes and not relied on my memory.

As far as charging an owner, I think it's all about fair value. You can't always give them what they want but hopefully you can give them what they need......but can you make them understand why they need it?! 

[John Mc]

ibseeker: My forester just charges an hourly rate for work that is not connected with a timber sale. It's puzzling why you can't find a forester to do the same in your area... particularly if he has other clients in the area. We've even got a few good ones who specialize in the smaller landowner, who may never have a big timber sale. They have to set their rate structure a bit differently - it costs that CF more per acre to provide similar services for a 20 acre lot vs a 500 acre parcel.

John Mc

[ibseeker]

I think I need to be more patient and call more foresters. I don't mind paying the money, I need their expertise so I'll pay the going rate. In the long run, it will be money well spent because I don't have the luxury of time to correct the big mistakes that I might make without quality input from a professional.

This whole issue of trying to nurture the forest in the direction I want to go is very complex, for me anyways. Just about the time I feel comfortable with my plan, a new piece of information comes along that shows me the errors in my thinking. I'm enjoying the learning experience but I'm not the most patient person when I have my sights set on a goal.

[woodtroll]

ibseeker, this is off topic a bit. Find a forester you like and whose management style and aspect to forestry you agree with. Their philosophy. Each forester has a different way of looking at a forest. That is the "art" part of this science of forestry.
Then remember, don't be impatient. We can only do our best. We have the privilege and responsibility of managing out forest now. Hopefully the affects of what we do will improve the stand in the future. Allot of what we do will not be fully realized till we are dead and gone. But it needs to be started by some one.
Now that is enough of my soap box.
Good luck.