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What's the best blade for for swingmilling?

Started by Dangerous_Dan, November 28, 2007, 09:40:49 AM

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metalspinner

It's not a matter of if you should, rather a matter if you could.

smiley_headscratch Or is it...

It's not a matter of if you could, rather a matter if you should.

I do what the little voices in my wife's head tell me to do.

brdmkr

Oh, somebody just do it... and post lots of pictures ;)
Lucas 618  Mahindra 4110, FEL and pallet forks, some cant hooks, and a dose of want-to

Captain

I think somebody should do a study of the effects of gyroscopic force on that blade before standing next to it ....with all of its inserted teeth....in the midst of swinging the blade.  OK, I'm game  :)

Captain

Furby

I think the blade will be too big for most gearboxes that you'd like to use.
It's gonna take a lot of ponies to run something like that.
That leaves 3 phase as your only easy option.

solodan

How big of a log can you guys handle on your mills? I know My Lucas can handle about a 60" log before I would have to block it up. I have sawed a 62" sugar pine once and had to remove the handle to roll under the top bar. :) I think the Brand X will only cut a 36" log, and the Petersons come in a wide or narrow frame. Firebass, what will yours do, and how wide is the carriage? Dangerous what about yours?  Inquiring minds want to know. :)

hansbaba

If the blade zings or rings when exiting the log, does this imply a problem. Mine does sometimes but I cant corelate the sound with bad cuts. Sometimes it zings and the cuts are still accurate and sometimes it zings and I find the blade has dipped down 3/16 or an 1/8.????

Firebass

Quote from: Captain on November 30, 2007, 10:47:48 PM
I think somebody should do a study of the effects of gyroscopic force on that blade before standing next to it ....with all of its inserted teeth....in the midst of swinging the blade.  OK, I'm game  :)

Captain

That sounds kind of fun.  Gyroscopic force testing. Bet it don't pay real well though..  Maybe take a old trashed MD blade in a un-supported  swing frame powered by a old yugo motor then feed it (remotely) into a log till it till it grabs and forces the swing frame to do the HURKY JURKY. :o   I Wonder if the blade would bend, break or just simply stall.  As for the gryroscopic force to rotate the carraige manually I don't think it'd be that bad.  If it was too much you could always go hydraulic. or mechanical.  my carraige is fairly heavey and I use a counter weight to equilize the Swing Frame.    I once acctidently gave my mill full throatle with out the swing frame latched.  Surprisingly it was no big deal, I just felt a little pull on the handle but nothing drastic. Maybe bigger would only add more mass making it even more stable.  But the torque that  50 or 100 HP could produce may be differant ball of wax.  For me testing would most likely be on a near complete prototype.

Now I know all of you have more sence than attemping any of the above but I am going to add this little note:

WARNING: Do not attemp any of the suggestions or test above.   Serious bodily injury or death may result. ;) ;D

Firebass


Captain

Hans, the most common cause of your intermittent scenario on us folks with portable tracks is track sag and parallelism...that is if the event happens on a horizontal cut.  A constant ring when exiting implies a problem.

Captain

Nate Surveyor

You should be able to stop pushing the mill through the log, and go back and forth at ANY time, and the marks left on the lumber from doing this should NOT be deeper than the corners of the teeth. IF they are deeper, mis-alignment, track sag, or something is wrong. Occasionally stressed trees do it though. You cannot do anything about stressed trees. Are these Butt cuts? Butt cuts seem to have more stress.

Cap'n seems to have a good handle on this, (proberly alot better than me), and we are saying alot the same things, with different words.

I'm good at making simple problems complex!


N
I know less than I used to.

Ironwood

Dan,

Why stop at 30". I have 5 PERFECTLY good 54" Frick blades at the shop, if you build it I will give you some..................... ;D, Powered by a Unimog motor........

                   Ironwood
There is no scarcity of opportunity to make a living at what you love to do, there is only scarcity of resolve to make it happen.- Wayne Dyer

brdmkr

Quote from: Furby on November 30, 2007, 10:49:31 PM
I think the blade will be too big for most gearboxes that you'd like to use.
It's gonna take a lot of ponies to run something like that.
That leaves 3 phase as your only easy option.


What about using a gearbox for a bushhog?  Those are rated at 100+ HP.  Don't know if the gearing would be right though.
Lucas 618  Mahindra 4110, FEL and pallet forks, some cant hooks, and a dose of want-to

woodbowl

The beauty of a swinger is to see a light saw head bounce it's way down the log on a swaying aluminum frame producing accurate lumber. To me this suggest the dynamic forces envolved, that overcome traditional sawing standards. There's got to be a trade off to get the desired effect, and higher RPM seems to be the reason. I am tempted to apply more power and bigger blades as well, but that calls for more hold down power, HD frame ect. Eventually it will evolve into a big hunk of machinery on the scale of a large circle mill with the ability to swing. It would be awsome, I would love to see it happen.

The question is, what is the best blade for swingmilling. There are proven, working mills with a blade RPM ranging from 1900 to 3000. This is a known working range. The direction of efficiency is to increase torque and lower RPM to find a happy medium before discovering the law of dimenishing returns. Then again there are some points to consider in the higher RPM's.
Full time custom sawing at the customers site since 1995.  WoodMizer LT40 Super Hyd.

Part_Timer

The best blade would be one that didn't find a piece of fence wire just after sharpening it. ;)
Peterson 8" ATS.
The only place success comes before work is in the dictionary.

Firebass

Has anyone ever had insert teeth come out on a MD mill :-\ 


Dan, 

Have you tried making some larger carbides?  If you not worried about kerf maybe you could cement some 5/16 carbides on your existing blade.


Firebass

hansbaba

With response to woodbowl.

If increased torque is what were after with a swing mill and not hp. Why hasnt anyone mentioned using a diesel. I would love to smell biodiesel all day instead of regular old stinky gas!! I know it is a bit of added weight, but how about a new vegie oil mill!!!!

hans.

Furby

I belive Peterson was doing a lot of testing with diesel engines and there was a problem with the harmonics if I recall correctly, and the added weight was too much.

Captain

Steve, love the new Moniker!!  Shows Swingmill Basics in the Raw!!  Now just some flying sawdust in the 2 directions....

Captain.

Dangerous_Dan

I have played with the adjustments for the blade many times trying to get it to the point of making the 8 inch deep cut in 1 pass in hardwood. Seems to me it's not the adjustment it's the blade. It cuts nice and straight until there is a little pinch on the blade or rubbing which seems to heat one side of the blade, cupping it slightly causing the rubbing to become worse, the blade gets hotter and the cup become worse and next thing you know - problems. It looks like the start of the problem is tension or following the grain causing heating of the blade.

Here's 2 ideas for a bad @ss swingmill.

How about using a big circle blade with gearbox and power unit that mounts stationary. It would flip from horizontal cuts to vertical cuts just like a regular swingmill. Support the log from below on a carrage like a circle mill but using bunks like mine or whats on an MD mill. This carrage would need to lift up and down as well as go back a forth like a regular circle mill. A lot of big parts to make, probably too much work.


How about this idea on the other end of the size scale. This is what I would really like to build.
I'm not really sure but it seems to me the smaller the blade the less problems that will arise. I was hoping to get some feed back about more types and sizes of blades making full depth cuts in hardwood. Here's my idea. Use the Lucas or Peterson 6 inch blade in a machine like my swingmill. 10hp should be plenty if not overpowering that small blade. For a visual of the design imagine the start of cutting a new level of boards out of a log. Now mirror the motor and blade to the other side of the log. Imagine 2 blades cutting from both sides of the log. 1 mill could be slightly ahead of the other so when they get to the middle of the log they are double cutting the last board which is in the middle of the log with out the blades hitting. The idea is to cut from both sides of the log at the same time making 2 boards per pass until getting to the middle where you would get 1 board double wide. A 12 inch wide board could be cut with the 6 inch blades.  If 12 inches is not wide enough try it with a 30 inch blade.
First you make it work, then you trick it out!

Dangerous_Dan

First you make it work, then you trick it out!

Nate Surveyor

Well, as I now see, you are no amateur when it comes to doing stuff.

I wish I had talent to do what you did. (not to mention the welding, bending, cutting, designing, and improvising skills!)

Now, on to your blade troubles.

IF your teeth were wider, (wider kerf) I predict that some of your troubles would go away.

I kind of think that the reason Peterson went with the more flexible frame was to ALLOW the blade to guide the MILL. Don't know that for sure. This prevents overheated blades.

For now, if you start feeling it bind, slow down, ease through the knots, or back up a little, to allow the blade to re-allign itself with the mill, and to get back in the proper groove, and then proceed with cutting. When I am cutting a SOFT pine log, and I come to a super hard knot, I slow down, and ease through it. This allows the blade to remain on the right path. I have found this helps with heavy tension logs.

I feel a little "in over my head" as you appear to be in a higher league than me, an AMATEUR miller!

It is all still fun for me though. And to get to talk milling with folks on this forum just plants seeds of industry in my soul.

And, I like that photo chop shop job too! I have been thinking of a double blade swing blade too. But it looks like you might actually get it done!

N



I know less than I used to.

woodsteach

OK so what is that a pix of?... Where do I get one?...That looks awesome. 

I wish I had 1 ounce of D.D's knowledge and ability to "git-r-done"

As far as blades, my Brand X came with blades from Pacific Hoe and if the saw dr. puts the teeth on correctly and I keep them sharp I usually have no problems with the 8" cut if I remember to be in a little less hurry.  If I get lazy and don't keep 'em sharp I cut 2 passes of 4".

woodsteach
Brand X Swing Mill, JD 317 Skidloader, MS460 & 290, the best family a guy could ever dream of...all provided by God up above.  (with help from our banker ; ) )

getoverit

This is going to be rather lengthy, but I believe it will answer your questions:

**DISCLAIMER** I dont sell blades nor do I repair them and I certainly dont sell mills. What I have to say is strictly out of experience and observation.**

I owned the Peterson 10" swing mill and I could cut 10" wide boards all day long in oak or any other wood for that matter. I would stop maybe twice during an 8 hour day to sharpen the blade (a 10 minute task) and then go right back to milling.

When I sold my mill, the new owner had a frined that owned an 8" Lucas with a 27hp engine on it. My Peterson was a 10" with a 13hp engine. All I would hear from the guy is that there is no way the Peterson could possibly mill with that little hp engine, and if it did, it would be slow as molases.

On the day I demo'd the mill, I picked a large oak log from the pile and began milling it. After a couple of passes, I let the new owner saw. He was moping along barely pushing the mill. I told him to speed it up and go faster. I got agrivated at him after a couple of minutes and lowered the blade to it's full 10" swath and pushed it as fast as I could through the log. He quickly saw what I was doing and then took control to try it out for himself. Of course it worked quite well.

After we were done and shut the saw down, he called his friend on his cell and told him "you aint gonna believe this"!! Then he told him how fast it would saw at 10" with the 13hp engine. He told me his friend's mill wouldnt go half that fast, with twice the HP and only 8" of cut no matter how hard he tried.

When the blade is sharp, it produces long strips of shavings. These have no resemblance to what a chain saw produces. They are long, as in 4 to 6" long or longer. It rips right through the log.

Here is what I believe to be the difference:

I believe that the blades I had were a different cutting angle of the tooth than what the Lucas mill blade was. Because of this, it cut better. Now keep in mind that I may be dead wrong, but knowing what I know I believe this to be so.

If you want to see if your blade will cut better using the Peterson setup and tooth angles, it would be fairly easy to get your hands on the sawdoc papers that discribe the angles of cut and try it for yourself. I believe that you will see the difference.

oh yeah, one last thing..... they guy immediately wrote the check to buy my mill.
I'm a lumberjack and I'm ok, I work all night and sleep all day

beenthere

getoverit
A lot of sense to what you said....and the speed of the push through the cut caused the sawdust to stay in the gullet and not spill out into the kerf beside the saw blade....where it will rub and cause heat that then causes trouble.  Not saying this is the root of the problem, but sure can be one.

I've heard sawdocs go to trouble shoot circular mills, and one thing they would do or recommend was to remove every other tooth in the blade. Often found the cut to be much better...taking more wood out in the bite, and getting less spillage of fine sawdust alongside the blade...avoiding the heat from rubbing.

I recall how fast Husband pushed the Peterson mill through the redwood log we sawed up last April. I was surprised that the engine had the power to go that fast. He knew it would, and put on a good demo. Then again, it was redwood...
See
https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=24954.0
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Firebass

Beenthere and getoverit,

Now that's some good stuff ;D  Thanks for sharing.  I know one thing for sure is I'm not getting any 6" ribbons.  So that in itself could be my problem.  I'm going to take your suggestion and work on my mill till it does just that.  I'll post when I figure it out.

Thanks
Firebass

Captain

HOLY COW Steve, YOU DID IT.  Nice  ;D

Captain

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