Advanced Falling Cuts

[moodnacreek]

cbutler 703 I'm with u I bore cut everything flatland and hillside I seldom cut less than 18in trees and leave them standing over 50in my mills seldom buy them over that. trees are to expensive to barber chair or cut 2ft up to cut a wedge but almost all mines hardwood.

So you bore cut everything?  You ever think about why?  I cut all hardwood too.  Unless you're cutting veneer all day you may want to ask yourself some questions about production.  I did several years ago.  Low stumps ain't all what they're cracked up to be as far as putting footage on the landing.  You can do a lot more to save out your wood with a higher stump.  Mine are usually 8-10" or just above the flare. Cutting down in the flair means dull chains in twisted up wood.  Not knockin what you do.  I mean think about other options in the best possible way.  It bumped my production for sure. More money in the bank. Barber chairs happen when you haven't removed the wood you needed to.  Whether in the face or the back cut.  Food for thought like I said.  Not raggin on your style.
When the first cat face is 8' 6" off the ground, you don't leave a stump.

[Skeans1]

I sawed some logs for a customer a couple of weeks ago and here is the stump:


 
Yes, the wedge was stuck in the stump.  His first attempt to drop the tree.  Didn't work so he went to the opposite side.



This one brought it down.  It fell toward the first attempt above.



 
The stump is seen in the background and the first attempt is seen on the left side of the stump.

I feel a bit better now. That's worse than the ugly stump I left a couple weeks ago  :^D  No pics cause I already destroyed the evidence  :^D  I mangled it so bad, I had 5 wedges stuck in the back, and still couldn't get it to go over. I recut the face, and nipped the sides. Then it literally took a tap with my hatchet to send it over. Right where I wanted, but with 600% more effort than it should have been.
Next tree I'm gonna premark every cut, and pay close attention to the bar. I seem to have a problem judging level with the saw.

Hard or soft wood? Hard woods take a sight big enough the top start to lean slight then your face. Softwood shoot for 1/3 to 1/2 deep on the sight and face.

[John Mc]

Magicman - I'm having trouble figuring out what his plan was in that first photo. What's going on with that big diagonal cut?

[mike_belben]

What's going on with that big diagonal cut?

It was the start of a funeral procession.  
Either his bar is completely smoked or hes got a 050 gauge chain on a 063 bar.  Thats a lotta scallop.

[John Mc]

cbutler 703 I'm with u I bore cut everything flatland and hillside I seldom cut less than 18in trees and leave them standing over 50in my mills seldom buy them over that. trees are to expensive to barber chair or cut 2ft up to cut a wedge but almost all mines hardwood.

So you bore cut everything?  You ever think about why?  I cut all hardwood too.  Unless you're cutting veneer all day you may want to ask yourself some questions about production.  I did several years ago.  Low stumps ain't all what they're cracked up to be as far as putting footage on the landing.  You can do a lot more to save out your wood with a higher stump.  Mine are usually 8-10" or just above the flare. Cutting down in the flair means dull chains in twisted up wood.  Not knockin what you do.  I mean think about other options in the best possible way.  It bumped my production for sure. More money in the bank. Barber chairs happen when you haven't removed the wood you needed to.  Whether in the face or the back cut.  Food for thought like I said.  Not raggin on your style.
When the first cat face is 8' 6" off the ground, you don't leave a stump.

Loggers in my area have a saying: "an inch on the stump is worth a foot in the crown." Loosely translated: "it's usually worth it to cut a low stump". Sure, there are exceptions, but it doesn't really take them any longer, and you have more options when bucking the log later.

[mike_belben]

About 50% of the time i go after a low stump, i end up cutting a dirt chimney inside.  So i really only do it now if the tree is in a travel lane ill have to drive over, or the buttlog is nice, or theres a defect up above that im trying to get one clear log out from under.  Some kinda half decent reason required to fill my sprocket tip bearing with mud.

On my land i leave em high now along the skid trail. They make great posts to redirect a winch cable or bumpers to protect keep trees.   The stumps bush out and feed deer.

[Magicman]

What's going on with that big diagonal cut?

It was the start of a funeral procession. 

I am just glad that I was not there but I am glad that I took the picture. 

[g_man]

Mike - Very good explanation on what you did on each step and why. Allows a better understanding of many complex cuts. Thanks

gg

[mike_belben]

thanks.. I had to mess up a lot of little culls to really understand the whats and whys. Figured it might save someone grief or injury.

Oh hey.. I forgot that i uploaded a sketch of the layout.  Its hard to "see it" all in writing. 

[lxskllr]

Hard or soft wood? Hard woods take a sight big enough the top start to lean slight then your face. Softwood shoot for 1/3 to 1/2 deep on the sight and face.

It was softwood. A mitigating factor was I brought it down from the top, and left a 12' spar, so I didn't have much top weight to work with. It also had a moderate lean at 8 o'clock if my fall direction was at 1 o'clock, but the main problem was my terrible cuts.
I can intellectualize the process, and pick out good stumps and bad stumps, which has become a hobby for me this year. I know *what* to do, but as I wrote in another thread, thinking isn't the same as doing. My single biggest problem is not controlling my bar. What looks like level to me, isn't. That's why I want to mark my cuts on the tree, then follow them. I think that'll help visualizing and feeling what the saw should be like while following the correct cut path.
I have forever. None of this is a job, so speed isn't an issue. Once I get the accuracy down, I'll work on speed. All for personal satisfaction. There's nobody to judge but myself.

[thecfarm]

You need glasses?
I learned from my Father. A hard teacher,but I know how to bring down a tree. We cut wood here for logs,sawmill. His last few years,we had some discussions about trees and straight cuts. Sometimes he was great and sometimes he was way off and I would just jump in and do it. He was kinda bull headed,but when it was down on the ground,excatly,where I said it would go,he would say,I would of never thought it would go that way. As I would tell him,I just use,what you taught me. Even sometimes cutting logs out, his cuts would be at a sharp angle.Not top to bottom,but from side to side.

[lxskllr]

Yea, I do need glasses. This particular tree was the one I created my "climbing" thread about. I said it was all dead except for some green at the top. That green at the top was Virginia creeper. Blind  :^D

I have glasses though, and while I need to get a new prescription, I don't think that's the issue. I dog into the tree, say "Yep, that looks good", and start cutting. Step around to the other side, and it's "Oh..."

[thecfarm]

I've said,oh,a few times too.    I can still hear my Father say,If you can't see,step around to the other side of the DanG tree. I can still hear him say that as I check myself today. ;D  And many other words too.
We had some trees that was an easy 3 feet across,there was many 4 feet across. I was waving around a 28 inch bars on those big ones. We would knock down a bunch on my last day off and he would limb and buck for 4 days. Than we would twitch wood for 3 days and start felling on the 4th day and start all over again.
Memories.
We was on a steep hill,horseback,he had cut trees in this situation before. I never had. A 3 foot white pine. I did what I always did,tree started to fall and that tree left the stump and I think flew through the air about 10 feet,while it felt like 10 feet and all I heard was a woosh what seemed like 5 minutes and than the tree hit the ground. WOW!!! Never seen anything like it. My father was all smiles. He knew I would get a kick out of it.
Than I kept backing into the same spot to twitch the logs out. It was a wet hole and I do mean wet. The last time I backed in the right rear tire of the tractor went out of sight. And I do mean out of sight. The front left was way up in the air. Not a good thing. But the tractor came right out. Lucky.

[quilbilly]

Video links don't seem to work anymore. I'd like to see a video of a GOL cut on a good leaner if anyone has a video. Also does everyone use this cut for softwood too? Seems the discussion is mostly centered around hardwood. Most folks out here do production cutting in oversize softwood so things are done just a little bit differently, or rather with different goals. Not too many people are worried about veneer logs etc.

[coxy]

I sawed some logs for a customer a couple of weeks ago and here is the stump:


 
Yes, the wedge was stuck in the stump.  His first attempt to drop the tree.  Didn't work so he went to the opposite side.



This one brought it down.  It fell toward the first attempt above.



 
The stump is seen in the background and the first attempt is seen on the left side of the stump.

I feel a bit better now. That's worse than the ugly stump I left a couple weeks ago  :^D  No pics cause I already destroyed the evidence  :^D  I mangled it so bad, I had 5 wedges stuck in the back, and still couldn't get it to go over. I recut the face, and nipped the sides. Then it literally took a tap with my hatchet to send it over. Right where I wanted, but with 600% more effort than it should have been.
Next tree I'm gonna premark every cut, and pay close attention to the bar. I seem to have a problem judging level with the saw.

at least you didn't have 5 saws stuck in it  :D

[Skeans1]

Hard or soft wood? Hard woods take a sight big enough the top start to lean slight then your face. Softwood shoot for 1/3 to 1/2 deep on the sight and face.

It was softwood. A mitigating factor was I brought it down from the top, and left a 12' spar, so I didn't have much top weight to work with. It also had a moderate lean at 8 o'clock if my fall direction was at 1 o'clock, but the main problem was my terrible cuts.
I can intellectualize the process, and pick out good stumps and bad stumps, which has become a hobby for me this year. I know *what* to do, but as I wrote in another thread, thinking isn't the same as doing. My single biggest problem is not controlling my bar. What looks like level to me, isn't. That's why I want to mark my cuts on the tree, then follow them. I think that'll help visualizing and feeling what the saw should be like while following the correct cut path.
I have forever. None of this is a job, so speed isn't an issue. Once I get the accuracy down, I'll work on speed. All for personal satisfaction. There's nobody to judge but myself.

What length of bar? What dawgs on the saw? A larger set of dawgs can help you find level same with a slightly nose heavy set up you can feel level.

[lxskllr]

What length of bar? What dawgs on the saw? A larger set of dawgs can help you find level same with a slightly nose heavy set up you can feel level.

I used my 362cm with a 25" bar, and the standard dawgs. It's definitely nose heavy. That bar's really too long for the saw, but it was purchased for a specific project, and I'm not otherwise often cutting big wood. I suppose that could change in the future. This time last year, I'd have never guessed I'd own all the gear I now possess.
I'll look into bigger dawgs. My boss' farm is gonna be my next project, and there's some sizable trees he mentioned wanting down. There's a lot of practice available there to get things right.

[Skeans1]

I'd call that still short if it was mine I'd run a 28 with square chain if it has a hard time pulling the chain. My 562 runs a 32 with semi skip on it in 5' wood.

[mike_belben]

Dang thats a lotta bar on a 60cc saw.

[teakwood]

way too much IMO, or are you just in softwood?

[Skeans1]

way too much IMO, or are you just in softwood?

We have both hard and softwood in Oregon, there's some ash, red alder, Maple, Oak, beech. It comes down to chain prep.

[so il logger]

Mike is the new advanced falling technique teacher

:D

Man, how things change

[mills]

Looked to me like he was trying to get this conversation started back up, and I'm glad he did. Falling trees is my favorite part of logging. Every tree is a challenge, and nothing is more satisfying than dropping a difficult tree right where you planned. I really enjoy seeing what others are doing... what worked... what didn't... and more important is why. 

I grew up learning from Dad and later with Mom's brother. They were both good, but I had limited exposure to other styles. Found out how really good they were once I learned to read stumps and saw what other "professionals" were doing. I'm sure these guys had limited training and mostly learned from experience. If they lived long enough. 

I enjoyed reading Mike's post. The way he explained it allowed me to visualize each step he took, and why he did it. Definitely didn't disagree with any of them. It may have been more complicated than what I would have done, but being simple minded limits me somewhat.  ;)

Keep this thread going boys.

[mike_belben]

Mike is the new advanced falling technique teacher

:D

Man, how things change

Ironic no? im a housewife sitting around on rainy days with enough time on my hands to type it out while the real men go work.  I figure its good for everyone if it prevents just one tax payer funeral.
The lord put me here for something and i think it was to teach. I cant stand not understanding intricate details, and i cant feel like ive learned a thing until i can successfully teach it to someone else.  The business i sold to buy this homestead in cash, began with trying to understand the phase angle relationship between camshafts and crankshafts.  Then making a tool and teaching others to degree cams and understand the significance of valve events on power curves.   I just kept going from there.. question, ponder, experiment, document, explain. 
Maybe i should write a book on felling techniques and buy a nicer place!   :D

[curved-wood]

If you write a book on feeling techniques I will buy you one ! I am like MILL always interested to see like other are putting down trees. Keep on writing