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Building a house with a sawmill

Started by Jmiller160, August 16, 2017, 12:08:39 PM

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Don P

Calling out "#2" doesn't mean anything without attaching it to a species. If you call out a species and a grade, now I can look up the strength you are talking about. Typically plans will call out something like "#2 SPF or better". You can of course supply something better. If they call for spf #2 or better and I supply SS yellow poplar, I look up the design values for #2 spf and SS yellow poplar. As long as the design value of what I have meets or exceeds the callout and the grading supports it, life is good. The plans can specify #1 mixed oak, as long as the grader certifies that the red oak beam I supply is that grade or better, you again are fine.

MbfVA

 To be more clear about the machine gun thing, in case you didn't see that thread, it related to trying to straighten out already warped wood; Don's wife  evidently has as one of her missions in life to use crooked lumber and make it work.  The summary on that one: Wood 1, Don's wife, 0.  years off both their lives:  probably somewhat substantial.

I fought the wood
And the...wood won.
I fought the wood
And the...wood won.

One very over arching concern I can think of with green 2x4 framing would be popping nails or screws in the sheet rock  as nature takes its course.  Maybe using SIP's avoids that problem by providing structural stability, in the case of timber framing, but I'm not sure how they get incorporated in standard stick framing.   That is not something I'm familiar with  or have studied, since I wasn't planning on 2x4 framing.

ps: I tried to figure out who did the original rock song, "I fought the law and the law won", but there were so many versions of it I'm not sure whose was original.   showing my age, but I'm getting so I can't hide it.
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MbfVA

Surely the engineer will require the species to be on the plans.
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Ianab

QuoteOne very over arching concern I can think of with green 2x4 framing would be popping nails or screws in the sheet rock  as nature takes its course.

That's one of the reasons you let the framing dry in place before you seal things up with drywall. In reality there is plenty to do on the build between the framing going up and the drywall going on. Roof, exterior cladding, plumbing and wiring etc. While you are doing that, the framing is drying in place.

Your "green" wood will no longer be green after 6 weeks, and probably have similar moisture to commercial construction lumber, usually a bit under 20%. Locally builders like to see it under 15% before the walls get closed in.
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

Don P

Surely he will give species AND grade or strength required.
Example, buy a set of stock plans, they come with the typical callout "#2 SPF or better". Those species don't grow here. You have mixed oak, mixed maple and yellow poplar. The problem then becomes "Can any of them substitute and if so at what grade?".
On this job I designed a beam for #2 northern red oak, I could only find scarlet, will it work and at what grade.
On another, the designer called out dougfir and I was in coastal Carolina, longleaf was available, same question.

Magicman

Yup, our SYP is commonly graded #2 SPIB, (Southern Pine Inspection Bureau) but that is the Architect's call.

My reply was more generic.   ;D

"I Fought the Law" is a song written by Sonny Curtis of the Crickets and became popularized by a cover by the Bobby Fuller Four, which went on to become a top-ten hit for the band in 1966.

I tried to link the video but I could not get it to work but pasting it to your browser works:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OgtQj8O92eI

Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

Don P

Your pine is graded #2 SYP, mill grading was audited by SPIB, they are the independent third party overseer. If I need a grader I can call them or for me TP is closer, up north NeLMA, etc and they will schedule a grader. I might have him grade the red oak, the maple and the poplar and at the end of that he will have assigned a grade to each board. He will not be able to tell me the strength of those boards only the grade. It is then up to me to go look up the strength of each of those species at the grade he has assigned.

MbfVA

Please don't think this is a dumb question, just one from a newbie:
is it possible for a grader to grade wood that's already in the timber frame?   Yes,  if allowable, I understand there is then a certain amount of risk on the part of the building party of having to tear something out, or perhaps, brace it or sister it in some way?
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Don P

They can grade what they can see, you are supposed to look at all faces when grading. So technically no. Hard to say, more questions for the BO.

What I've been trying to stick in here is the exact legal code stuff, identifying where the line of the law is and describing how that is intended to work. Where MM and apparently you have an easier time it is sometimes good to know how far it is back to that line. This is why I've been a little picky here, I want you all to be able to understand it. Often the building official is not that well versed in this.

Magicman

Thanks, if there is any question whatsoever, then don't saw.  There are a couple of counties North of me that I will not saw framing lumber in.  To do so would only lead to wasted lumber or someone dismantling.  Whichever, it would be a very dissatisfied former customer.  Anything other than framing lumber is OK.  In my immediate surrounding counties there is no code, building permit, nor inspections.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

starmac

MM, In those counties north of you that do not allow ungraded lumber for structural use, is it not allowed in agriculture  out building use?
Old LT40HD, old log truck, old MM forklift, and several huskies.

Magicman

I don't know for sure but they have to get permits for those buildings so my guess would be graded lumber.

I get several calls every year and my answer is "no sawing framing lumber".
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

MbfVA

 It's pretty clear that some states are more uniform in their application/ enforcement of the building code than others. That dribbles down to the counties as well  since they have to dance to the state tune.  That is where the much hated Dillon rule comes in.  But as a former county supervisor who didn't like it, I understand that you can't have local guys totally defying state rules just because a few shouting constituents insist on it.   As Don and I agree, application of the rules in Virginia sometimes depends very much on the locals.  Even though there may not be that much variation in the state law itself.

Did I just succeed in twisting myself totally into a pretzel on that last paragraph?

Personally, I never find any of Don's posts to be overly picky.  He's just trying to tell us what he knows when asked, and he evidently knows a heck of a lot.  In my few months on here, I have developed a lot of respect for him, Magicman and a bunch of others too numerous to list here.

When I want to learn, and occasionally be able to help, I come to this forum. I only wish there were such a resource for restaurant owners.  In my 31+ yrs  owning experience with my wife,  my fellow restaurant owners are a mostly decent bunch, but not nearly as friendly and nice as this group.  Even the CPA bunch is not nearly so helpful to each other.
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Ljohnsaw

Quote from: MbfVA on December 02, 2017, 04:50:02 PM
Please don't think this is a dumb question, just one from a newbie:
is it possible for a grader to grade wood that's already in the timber frame?   Yes,  if allowable, I understand there is then a certain amount of risk on the part of the building party of having to tear something out, or perhaps, brace it or sister it in some way?

Also, what I read somewhere...  If you are having a grader come out to inspect your timbers, you better not have cut your joints.  A mortise hole would be a defect and your great #2 or even #1 timber might be classified as a #3 :o
John Sawicky

Just North-East of Sacramento...

SkyTrak 9038, Ford 545D FEL, Davis Little Monster backhoe, Case 16+4 Trencher, Home Built 42" capacity/36" cut Bandmill up to 54' long - using it all to build a timber frame cabin.

MbfVA

 I would make sure it became very difficult for such a person to get work from anyone that I was able to tell his story to.  Social media and its ability to spread stories of such bureaucratic stupidity makes it less likely, in my op.

Don, you seem to be plugged into the grading world, have you ever heard of that?
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Don P

Several of us were at a TF Guild conference several years ago. Buddy Showalter from the AWC was talking about grading of timbers and there was some discussion of grading after joinery prior to assembly. That has been several years and I've not heard more.

MbfVA

 The main concern in my mind about grading is not so much that we wouldn't have enough good lumber from our woods that grades well enough at minimum sizing to use.  It's that all the lumber would have to be available at once to avoid  expensive multiple visits from the grader charging for both travel and time.

If that needs elaboration, let me know and I'll try to be more clear.

I can't help it, I'm a CPA and into financial (and therefore operational)  efficiency.  If we are to get this project done, efficiency is a big part.

That's another expression for tight.

Our restaurant has mostly always been open just four days a week.  When we were first getting started and lived next-door, I turned off the gas and thus all the pilot lights, every Sunday night, and re-lit them Thursday afternoon before the kitchen started up.  Our heat was oil then, btw.

Waste not Want not.
Spend not Still got.
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starmac

I was talking to one of the hands at the sawmill a few weeks back, while they were loading some utility poles on my truck. They had a grader there, that had flown up from Washington state just to grade their lumber, I can't imagine what that cost. I never knew any of the lumber they sawed was graded.
Old LT40HD, old log truck, old MM forklift, and several huskies.

Don P

It certainly would be cheaper to have all the wood ready for grading at once, which is what the mill starmac is describing must have done for a job.

My barn client is one of our supervisors and he has certainly suffered through me venting about all of this. He also hears Harry Homeowner complaining about that bad building inspector. Generally when you tell someone they can't do something they aren't going to be happy. Go very carefully firing or even with solidarity. The community has a lot tied up in training these guys and when we lose one it takes us a decade to bring a green one up to speed.  We started that job marking trees as per the cut list the timberframers gave us, we had a logger fell and deliver the tree lengths to the saw area. That list would have been easy to grade. Near the end, after we had major project creep and my partner and I were back and forth from forest to mill to timberframers. We had finally delivered over 3 times that original list. Happily this was ag exempt, had it been residential we would have needed a grader on payroll. I pointed this out to our supervisor as one of the things that doesn't really work with the present system.

MbfVA

 Your last sentence highlights what may be the reason why a lot of building inspectors are less than rabid about grading and perhaps other things.

Again referencing my years in government, it's pretty rare that local government doesn't feel the heat when something is wrong and then react accordingly, often in less that forthright in your face ways.   It's the old saying: success is getting what you want, happiness is wanting what you get.  Sometimes even public officials take that course under advisement.

Something else just occurred to me, from my 1970-71 quarter as a civil engineering co-op student at the Seaboard Coastline Railroad (part of now CSX):

"Sign" in the Division Engineer's Office (my boss), recognizing the confusion between engineers and enginemen, the new name then for "train operators"

I'm not allowed to drive the train
Nor even clang the bell.
But let it jump the g_d_m track
And see who catches h__l.

I can elaborate if the analogy is too far out there.
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Georgia088

I know this is probably off subject and maybe even a stupid question, but I'm curious. If there were no building inspectors or enforcement on rough cut lumber at all: would YOU use green lumber for framing right off the mill? I understand that the likely answer will probably be to have it dry first because of cosmetic blemishes such as dry wall cracks etc. however for the structural purpose of it, how much better is dried lumber than right off the mill green lumber? I'm sure species matters as well. Sothern yellow pine is what I have seen used the most in my area for framing with rough cut material.

starmac

DonP, the mill I am talking about is our only commercial mill for interior Alaska. They supply the general public rough cut lumber, even planed and tongue and groove flooring, but air dried, no kiln. they also import wood and everything else a lumber yard has.
They were not bringing a grader up for one job, but for general sales, as they probably have a years supply of dimensional lumber drying most of the time.
One of their biggest products though is oilfield dunnage.
Old LT40HD, old log truck, old MM forklift, and several huskies.

MbfVA

 Seems like Georgia088's question posed about green versus dried is not what graders are looking at is it?  Or is dry lumber inherently stronger?
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Don P

 I have built green, I don't think it's a great idea if you can avoid it. Dry wood is roughly twice as strong as green. Nails driven into green wood that subsequently dries lose up to 70% of their withdrawal strength. Then there is the distortion that goes on during drying.

Magicman

The two homes that I described in Reply #45 being built with green lumber are/were the only ones that I am aware of.  Most customers sticker and air dry for 6-12 months.  I do not know of any that used kiln dried lumber.

I used kiln dried T&G SYP for wall paneling in the Cabin Addition.  A year later I installed SYP and Ash wall paneling & ceiling that had been air dried only.  Now two years later I can not tell any difference.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

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