How Do You Tally Bd-Ft When Custom Sawing?

WDH · February 07, 2009, 09:28:03 PM

I do not do much custom sawing. I have a guy that wants me to cut some cedar through and through with the bark edge on. What would be the most expedient and fair way to determine the number of board feet? Measure every board with a tape?

Bibbyman · February 07, 2009, 09:30:08 PM

I'd estimate the BF and then double it. Sawing through and through to leave a live edge is a lot of trouble.

Tom · February 07, 2009, 09:48:11 PM

I used to do that kind of sawing and I measured each board. I just took an average width from one end to the other and considered it a dressed board.

You will probably find that you will be quite lenient. It's a good time to brag on the guys wood and point out pretty places and make him proud that you were the one that he allowed to saw it.

Don't minimize the opportunity to be special to him.

pigman · February 07, 2009, 09:53:11 PM

I have sawed some cedar that way and it went fairly fast. I just put the log on the deck, centered the pith, sawed down to the center of the log , then flipped the log and sawed to deck. Since I didn't have to edge the boards I just charged by the international log scale. I used the red cedar scale that is just the international scale that goes down to the smaller diameters. If it is a repeat customer that understands how milling works I just charge by the hour and let them try to work them selves to death loading logs, flipping logs and stacking boards to try to save a dollar. :D

WDH · February 07, 2009, 10:21:45 PM

Bibby, I am not sure that a live edge is important; he just doesn't care if the bark is on. That sure makes it easier not to edge. I think like you say that using a basis to estimate the footage and effort and give him a price in $ may be the best way to go. Kinda like a lump sum of "X$ to saw that pile of logs over there".

Tom, he looked over my wood and liked the care and very consistent cuts from my mill. He commented on how neat my drying stacks were. I told him that the guy 20 miles up the road would likely do it cheaper, and that he should probably use him instead of me since I am small and not into heavy production. I think that he just stopped by to check me out. I did tell him that nobody could cut it more accurately and consistently than I can. I appreciate your comments about treating him special. That keeps people coming back and brings other people in. I have learned that from you.

Pigman, I like the International scale idea. Do you estimate and add an overrun? I have found that I get a consistent overrun with the International scale, about 15% if memory serves me correctly (but I need to check that. I tend to measure things a lot to know what is going on ;D). With Doyle and medium sized logs, I have found the overrun to be about 40%. What is your experience?

Tom · February 07, 2009, 10:32:13 PM

If he is interested in live edge, question him about providing a slab thick enough to make trim.

If you saw the outside slabs 2 1/2 to 4 inches thick, he can put them on a table saw, with the sawed side riding on the table, and saw 1/2 to 3/4 inch wide trim boards for rustic furniture or house trim. Every one of the little boards will have a live edge. It may get you past the wierd shapes on the outside of the log and get you into some solid, red wood.

You may, or may not, decide to charge him for the thick slabs. They are basically waste to you but would be a windfall of free cedar board to him.

pigman · February 07, 2009, 10:40:07 PM

I have never figured the overrun on cedar, I just don't saw a lot of cedar. I just hate to have to measure all the boards and I find I make more money per day if I don't have to spend a lot of time measuring short narrow boards. This year even on hardwood logs I have gone to using the international sale on the logs before sawing. One customer measured the boards and it came out that he had a overrun of just 5% on about 16" average diameter logs. He did have some crooked logs and one that was rotten. If I had charged by measuring the boards, most of that log would have gone in the slab pile without getting paid.

379hammerdown · February 07, 2009, 11:40:33 PM

Quote from: Tom on February 07, 2009, 10:32:13 PM
If he is interested in live edge, question him about providing a slab thick enough to make trim.

If you saw the outside slabs 2 1/2 to 4 inches thick, he can put them on a table saw, with the sawed side riding on the table, and saw 1/2 to 3/4 inch wide trim boards for rustic furniture or house trim. Every one of the little boards will have a live edge. It may get you past the wierd shapes on the outside of the log and get you into some solid, red wood.

Darnit! Why did you have to go and say that???? I never thought of that... That's a really good idea! I could rant on with all the ideas running through my head on how to use these, or cut them, but I'll just bite my lip, spare you the boredom & say thanks

379hammerdown · February 08, 2009, 12:09:00 AM

Quote from: 379hammerdown on February 07, 2009, 11:40:33 PM
Quote from: Tom on February 07, 2009, 10:32:13 PM
If he is interested in live edge, question him about providing a slab thick enough to make trim.

If you saw the outside slabs 2 1/2 to 4 inches thick, he can put them on a table saw, with the sawed side riding on the table, and saw 1/2 to 3/4 inch wide trim boards for rustic furniture or house trim. Every one of the little boards will have a live edge. It may get you past the wierd shapes on the outside of the log and get you into some solid, red wood.

Darnit! Why did you have to go and say that???? I never thought of that... That's a really good idea! I could rant on with all the ideas running through my head on how to use these, or cut them, but I'll just bite my lip, spare you the boredom & say thanks

Okay.. I cant help myself!!!!!! An easy way you could make natural edge trim boards... and generate additional footage (IF you are willing to deal with small pieces). Cut some thick slabs as mentioned above and set them aside. Later on when you are cutting some 1x material, just dog the slab up sideways so the flat side is butted up against the side of the cant to be cut into 1x's... and begin cutting. With each cut, you will end up with your target 1x board and as a bonus you will get a piece of trim!!!!!

And just so I dont get griped at for leading off the subject... the way I figure out board footage when cutting for a customer is:

1. Stack all Flitches into a neat pile as they come off the mill.

2. When the log is cut into the cant and ready to make boards, I note the length of the log (Usually known before its loaded) and measure the thickness and width of it and go to town.

What I mean is I have a book... and right before I start cutting boards out of the cant... I'll write something like: 11x14x16'= and then start cutting. I would then cut down to 5.5 on the cant, flip it and begin cutting my 16' 2x6's. I do this for all the logs... sizes vary.... then later on I do ALL the math for the list I made of ALL the logs I cut.... 20 or 30 of them maybe. Figure up the answer to the 11x14x16'= and all the others, add up all the footage, multiply the total footage by my sawing rate and that's the cutting charges for that.

For the flitches, I may have cut some of them here and there into boards... I keep a list of THAT footage in a separate column on the same page. I add those up individually, add that to the total footage, add charges and get the grand total. It works very easy for me, its extremely fast and I usually can write down the log dimensions while making the last sizing cut so I don't lose any time.

This method works very well for me.

gizmodust · February 08, 2009, 06:57:02 AM

I have a small custom mill and tally each cant. As for the flitches, I consider them part of the cost. No one up here want them and for my outdoor furnace they work great. Like 379hammerdown did, I've made a chart of cant sizes in a given log and then figure from that. Usually the customer is right there and we work the log together. At the end of the day when we tally, any "in betweens" are put in his favor. Sometimes even dropped. Always feels good when they're happy, smiling and shaking your hand and really mean it.

Cedarman · February 08, 2009, 08:38:36 AM

When sawing straight through, I measure each board width to the nearest 1/2" at about 1 1/2 foot from the small end. I add in my head as I go for the whole log and write the total width of all the boards down. I do that for each log. When finished do the math and that is the board footage that I use. I usually go for a 3 to 4" board on the first cut. This leaves a thin slab. We just sent a board fence of 3 1/2" wide to 4 1/2" wide x 3/4" thick to Atlanta this past week. All live edge. The post were live edge and the runners were live edge. I hope he sends a picture.

backwoods sawyer · February 08, 2009, 09:18:00 AM

Quote from: 379hammerdown on February 08, 2009, 12:09:00 AM
What I mean is I have a book... and right before I start cutting boards out of the cant... I'll write something like: 11x14x16'= and then start cutting. I would then cut down to 5.5 on the cant, flip it and begin cutting my 16' 2x6's. I do this for all the logs... sizes vary.... then later on I do ALL the math for the list I made of ALL the logs I cut.... 20 or 30 of them maybe. Figure up the answer to the 11x14x16'= and all the others, add up all the footage, multiply the total footage by my sawing rate and that's the cutting charges for that.

For the flitches, I may have cut some of them here and there into boards... I keep a list of THAT footage in a separate column on the same page. I add those up individually, add that to the total footage, add charges and get the grand total. It works very easy for me, its extremely fast and I usually can write down the log dimensions while making the last sizing cut so I don't lose any time.

This method works very well for me.

I find that I work out in the weather so writing things down as I go dose not work well for me.
At the end of the day, I measure the stacks of lumber. If you make neat stacks, it takes about 10 min to tally the days work.
As for live edges you can charge by the hour or estimate the width, I would talk it over with the customer before I started and give them the pros and cons of doing it both ways and let them decide how they feel they would like to be charged. If your hourly rate is based on your board footage rate it will not matter to you which way you charge.

ErikC · February 08, 2009, 11:51:10 AM

I keep a tally going as I cut, I don't like to count it all later. I buy those "rite in the rain" scale books and after each log, count boards and mark the end with a lumber crayon. Then I know which are new on the next count. While I count, dad is usually squaring up the next log or something. Pretty efficient for us.

Chuck White · February 08, 2009, 12:24:26 PM

I would do pretty-much as I do when sawing "adirondack siding"!
Adirondack Siding is leaving one live edge!

I will saw a board that is around 8 inches (if the other side were to be sawed), but with the wavy edge on one side, it may actually be 10 inches. I would charge for 8 inch boards, because there is one edge that I don't have to worry about.
This equals 1. less work, 2. less milling time!

If you're leaving both live edges, take an average of the 2 ends and go with that or maybe just go with the wide end!

Chuck

Tom Sawyer · February 08, 2009, 01:25:57 PM

I always charge by the hour, not the board foot. My costs are the same wether I am cutting 16' 2x10s or cutting cedar through and through, so why should I charge differently?

Tom

Tom · February 08, 2009, 01:33:51 PM

Quotewhy should I charge differently?

'Cause your profits are the same too.

Tom Sawyer · February 08, 2009, 03:35:19 PM

Quote from: Tom on February 08, 2009, 01:33:51 PM
Quotewhy should I charge differently?

'Cause your profits are the same too.

Yup! So I always know how much I am going to make, and the customer always knows that he can cut his costs by having the logs ready, and having someone there to help.

Tom · February 08, 2009, 03:43:26 PM

Not trying to sell one or the other methods, I lean toward charging by the boardfoot.

The reason is that sawmilling is generally, not always, piece work. The more efficient I am, the shorter the job. The profits don't change, the customer pays the same regardless of the time involved, but I could get on to the next job quicker. Sometimes I could do more than one job in a day. If I sawed by the hour, I would make the same whether I busted my butt or not.

There is reason to charge by the hour. Usually it is because of logistics, or the work site isn't set up properly, or the customer wants time consuming cuts (like 10,000 ft. of 1x4's from 6" logs).

I'll not be one to say that one way works best for everybody. I just found that my profits were commensurate with my efforts when I sawed by the boardfoot.

Dan_Shade · February 08, 2009, 05:13:48 PM

i've found that with a lot of my custom sawing jobs, I often end up with many different length logs, which makes tallying at the end of the day difficult for me.

A few years ago, I just started scaling international and charging accordingly. for me, it makes life much easier.

metalspinner · February 08, 2009, 07:39:52 PM

My sawyer came to cut a pile of cedar for me just like that last year, WDH.

At the end of the day, I asked him "how much do I owe you?" First he looked at the pile... then his watch... then the pile again. He said "$250." "OK," I said. Later while stacking, I counted up the pile measuring the small end of the boards. He nailed the total measure of that stack to within 5BF of his normal BF rate.

8)

Not sure how he did it. Just plenty of experience, I guess.

WDH · February 08, 2009, 11:19:35 PM

There are some very good suggestions here. Looks like there are several ways to go. On sawing regular stuff, I like to stand the sawn boards up against the shed in order to sweep off the sawdust. That makes it real easy to measure the footage. With this cedar, it will likely come off the saw and directly into the customer's truck or trailer.

Chuck White · February 09, 2009, 09:04:30 AM

Quote from: Dan_Shade on February 08, 2009, 05:13:48 PM
i've found that with a lot of my custom sawing jobs, I often end up with many different length logs, which makes tallying at the end of the day difficult for me.

A few years ago, I just started scaling international and charging accordingly. for me, it makes life much easier.

In the contract I have the customers sign, there's one item which reads: "When a customers log is 6 or more inches beyond the nominal length, the customer will be charged the next full foot"!
Most (not all) logs are cut to an even length, that is, 8,10,12, etc. plus a couple of inches, if it is 8'6", the customer will be charged for a 9 foot log!
With this in the contract, it disuades the customer from cutting logs longer than listed and prevents him from slipping a few 9' logs into the 8' pile!

OneWithWood · February 09, 2009, 12:06:28 PM

I don't travel with my mill so all the custom cutting is done in my barn and the wood is stacked directly onto the kiln carts. The carts are 80"x18' so each layer equals 120 bd ft for 4/4. I sticker as I go and butt the boards against each other as tight as possible. With boards sawn from a cant this is very accurate. When I am sawing crooked logs and leaving a live edge there can be a lot of space. Depending on how difficult it was to dog the log and saw it I discount for the air.
Sawing charges and kiln drying charges are based on the board foot.

Frickman · February 09, 2009, 07:30:14 PM

Back when I still custom sawed I too charged by the board foot, international scale. That way I avoided all the counting of odd sized pieces. Alot of the custom sawing orders had you making all kinds of oddball stuff.

gizmodust · February 15, 2009, 07:51:56 AM

I found that, in my situation of custom work, it is best to use both methods of charging. Charging by the b/f when cutting for lumber and by the hr. when cutting for the artisan. When cutting for the artisan, they usually want to think and look at each board face :-\. That could put your pay and patience in question. I not versed on different scaling methods so, instead of trying to school customers on them, I get out the ol' slipstick.