Timber Theft

[jwilly3879]

Had an interesting phone call from the local EnCon Police about alleged timber theft. The landowner adjacent to a job we did last summer has filed a complaint of timber being cut on his property. The officer wants to meet with me to show her the boundary line that we used. It is pretty obvious, old wire fence and stone wall and we never even went close to it.

The biggest gripe I have is that the landowner who filed the complaint is an absentee owner and has no idea where his line is.

He would like to be present when I take a walk in the woods with the police so he can locate his line.

I told the officer I would be happy to show her the boundary but fail to understand how the landowner can file a complaint without knowing where his line is. After this allegation I have no desire to show him his line. They contend that many trees were cut, I explained to her that the timber we cut should be obvious since it was done less than a year ago and that the property in question has been cut twice in the last 15 years so there would be many stumps but not fresh cut.

I hate having to defend myself against a baseless allegation. I am confident that no theft occurred as we located both ends of the line and flagged the entire 2000' except where it required hip boots.

Just needed to vent.

[BargeMonkey]

 Vent away, you've got every right to be mad, another dark side of the industry no one likes to talk about. The thieves down the road from me, who recently bought another skidder and parade on FB under a different company name every yr are directly the reason for the change of NYS timber theft laws. Drop a skidder of on a weekend landowner, cut the best in 3 days and run, they did it all over down here but it's not "correct" to point them out. We had a similar problem with baiting on the border of our farm near stateland a few yrs ago, they caught the person but good luck proving your innocence sometimes. 👍

[ehp]

It happens here as well but with our by-law  99.9% get caught and charged but it still happens 2 or 3 times a year . Here you cannot go by fences as lots of bush lots have 5 or more fences ran threw them so we find the corner stakes and run the correct line but you still have to watch as land owners will move the corner stakes so their place is bigger

[ehp]

Our by-law is armed with one of the best GPS systems out there and sure know how to run it

[coxy]

that stinks jwilly I have not gone through that in years thank god its a pain but every now and again you come out good and may end up as friends  we went through the ringer with an older lady and her gson about 15years ago I ended up getting it surveyed and found out the line was over 60ft off to my good after every thing was settled she paid for the survey and I cut the logs on her place I still here from her gson every now and then she passed away about 9years ago and they sold the property  keep us posted  good bad or other wise  ;D

[treeslayer2003]

Had an interesting phone call from the local EnCon Police about alleged timber theft. The landowner adjacent to a job we did last summer has filed a complaint of timber being cut on his property. The officer wants to meet with me to show her the boundary line that we used. It is pretty obvious, old wire fence and stone wall and we never even went close to it.

The biggest gripe I have is that the landowner who filed the complaint is an absentee owner and has no idea where his line is.

He would like to be present when I take a walk in the woods with the police so he can locate his line.

I told the officer I would be happy to show her the boundary but fail to understand how the landowner can file a complaint without knowing where his line is. After this allegation I have no desire to show him his line. They contend that many trees were cut, I explained to her that the timber we cut should be obvious since it was done less than a year ago and that the property in question has been cut twice in the last 15 years so there would be many stumps but not fresh cut.

I hate having to defend myself against a baseless allegation. I am confident that no theft occurred as we located both ends of the line and flagged the entire 2000' except where it required hip boots.

Just needed to vent.

i been thru that. some times folks panic and assume you are up to no good, some times they simply have no clue as to who owns what, and some times they try threats thinking the dumb logger will just pay them to go away. all three need to think about what they are doing. it sure has got my bp up a few times over the years. last time it happened i had flagged the lines very well. the renter ran back and told me i was going to jail. i asked her if she saw my flags, what flags? when the real adjoining owner got there he apologized and we shook hands, he knew full well i was right. some of this comes from the public thinking all logging is evil. we need to change that but its hard when school teaches wrong point of view instead of fact.

[4x4American]

Vent away, you've got every right to be mad, another dark side of the industry no one likes to talk about. The thieves down the road from me, who recently bought another skidder and parade on FB under a different company name every yr are directly the reason for the change of NYS timber theft laws. Drop a skidder of on a weekend landowner, cut the best in 3 days and run, they did it all over down here but it's not "correct" to point them out. We had a similar problem with baiting on the border of our farm near stateland a few yrs ago, they caught the person but good luck proving your innocence sometimes. 👍

Many ppl have told me that a local theif known round here is the direct reason for the timber theft laws, he's in jail now from what I'm told..I can't help but wonder if it's the same person we're talking aboot eh

[killamplanes]

I've got a friend that had a pretty big logging company here. He bought so much timber him and his help were several years behind. So he got some out of state contract cutters. Apparently set them loose with little guidance, long story short I hear 240 wo, walnuts of a different owners were cut. That was 4 months ago no end to suit is near. What a mess. He pulled anchor and left the state. All around bad deal but I never get involved got my own dog and pony show....

[dgdrls]

There are a few of those "Loggers" here in Central and Northern NY who have been repeatedly
caught and charged only to get off with little to no penalty.

Just have to be prepared, most important as Coxy showed is a good up to date survey and lines marked in the field
before you start cutting,  then have a copy of the cutting contract on site so when the inevitable happens
you can share the documents and end it in 5 minutes

D

[coxy]

another thing to watch for is people in the 480a forestry plan trying to sell you there logs on there own never checked in to it but who would take the heat over that the LO or you

[jwilly3879]

I have done the research on the 480's and 480a's, under 480 the 6% is paid to the Town and under 480a it is paid to the county and returned to the Town but the DEC needs to be involved.

At least under 480a the management plan needs to be followed but under 480 the land can just sit and never be harvested which places a burden on the other taxpayers in Town. We have a 480 lot here the was placed under 480 in the seventies and has never been cut. The property currently has a full assessment of $480,000 but with the exemption they are paying taxes on $80,000. 40 years of reduced assessment has lost the Town many tax dollars. They are finally cutting some timber but complaining loudly over the 6% of stumpage they must pay the Town.

The crazy thing with the 480 law is that the exemption goes with the property, not the owner. The 480a needs to be updated when the property is sold.

[loggerman1959]

It only take 2 or 3 of these bad apples to ruin it for the rest of us . A few well publicized cases make the news and we all come under scrutiny . Folks think all loggers are dishonest and timber thieves . I can't tell you how many times I've seen beautiful wood on the other side of a boundary line way back in the middle of no where , and knew no one would ever know if I cut it , yet I stayed off it . No one ever sees that , just the news that some low life ripped off some poor folks ....

[coxy]

what I'm asking is if the LO sells you the logs they know they are in the tax law you don't and cut them who is in the wrong you or the LO

[jwilly3879]

Don't really know the answer to that.

We always check the tax rolls and that will show if it is a 480 or a 480a parcel.

[Frickman]

I have been accused of stealing timber many times. Usually the accuser has no grounds for the accusation, and as stated above. doesn't know where the line is or tries to move the line to grab more acreage. One particular case I was accused of stealing an acre of timber from a recently subdivided property in a local subdivision. It just so happened the surveyor was still working in the neighborhood so I helped him remark the line. The accuser did not even have the brains to remove the stakes from the original survey, He just tore off the pink flagging tape. The surveyor and I just ran the original lines and reflagged the stakes he had placed a year earlier. Problem solved.

[MbfVA]

In VA cutting timber without permission will cost the offender 3 times the value.  That is if the lines are marked, I think.  Universal here for both posted and property line marking is three silver marks at a certain height on the P/Line trees.

One logger who was caught a few years ago was an elected County Supervisor in neighboring county (same as county commissioners in other states).  Embarrassing but it had allegedly shielded him from consequences through several prior complaints.  A Charlottesville journalist got wind and basically took him down as I recall.  I think the voters in his county ended his political career soon thereafter, too.  Jim H who runs a wood milling business in Albemarle County and who is a member here may know that story better than I do.

The C-ville area has a LOT of absentee owners (and residents) with high dollar land (and buildings), etc.  Alan Alda sold the 300 acres he bought during the filming of "The Four Seasons" a few years back.  I think the Fed borrows money in C-ville when it runs short, of what they have left after paying city taxes.

That 6% thing for timber with deferred taxes is interesting.  "Land use" taxation is king in VA, and the only comeback is if any of the land is developed later, some deferred taxes and interest must be paid ("rollback taxes"), but only on the required home site portion of most larger parcels (which usually are therefore structured appropriately).

Recently a lot of localities have tightened down on abuses.  "Cutting the grass" with a big finishing mower cost a retired Fortune 100 CEO his land use on almost 1300 acres, but he then did conservation easements which earns permanent land use valuation in VA (and some nice resellable tax credits, best in the US, in addition to federal deductions).

I have it on my agenda to mark our property lines better, using our 2011 survey.  The adjoining landowner to our north now lives in California and has all his parcels under conservation easement.  His pines that adjoin our hardwoods were thinned a few years ago and I thought the loggers did a great job with no consequences to our land (good forester involved).  I too am suspicious of the logging frat since I have seen some really bad haircuts, but they generally do what the client asks, so just like with bad teens, one needs to primarily blame the parents (but not letting the teens/loggers off the hook either).

[ohiowoodchuck]

It's good practice for a landowner to know his lines. I had my whole place surveyed and actually helped the surveyor every time he he went out to do something. I had him mark the line every 100 foot or so and I drove a steel fence post on his mark. I can stand at one post and look left or right and see the other post. It protects me so I know exactly where the line is and if I want to cut a tree I'm 100% sure that the adjoining lawn owner won't have a grip. Old fence was all the way around the place but it wasn't exact.

[jwilly3879]

Rechecked the line yesterday and the closest my son got to it is 50 yards. As I mentioned before the complainant's lot has been cut twice that I know of and I found that the last harvest actually went over the line into the lot we harvested.

In speaking with the LO we cut for, I found out that the LO that filed the complaint has never been to the property he owns. He was told by a prospective buyer that timber had been harvested and that is the basis for his complaint.

Should be an interesting conversation with the EnCon Officer next week. If the LO does show up I have some words for him also. Filing a false complaint is frowned upon.

[coxy]

I am a believer of paying extra for the surveyor to blaze and paint the property lines or the LO going with the surveyor and doing it him/her self  I remember my neighbor buying the 80a next to him in 1985 I was 15 and painted and blazed the line for him and every few years I go back and paint them again the marks never go away flagging tape never stays to long  I have also seen people paint over and around the flagging tape this way after the tape falls off there is still a ring around the tree where the tape was  I think it should be law that the LO every 2-3 years should have to remark there property lines

[wannaergo]

A couple years ago around here, a guy went to his camp and found his 40 acres completely slicked off. not a merchantable tree standing. I heard his daughter forged his wife's signatures on the timber contracts, did it all via phone and fax.  The logger and forester who worked the sale had all the paperwork in order, and the only guy who wasn't in the loop was the poor guy who actually owned and used the camp. I guess he was trying to figure out what happened, he thought somebody just moved in and hammered it. I don't know if he ever found out that his own kid got the stumpage money..

[coxy]

does anyone know how true it is that if you have a mortgage on your property you not supposed to sell the logs unless the bank oks it

[WDH]

In Georgia, you have to get a release from the bank.

[Ron Scott]

That's usually the case. It's always best to check with the lender holding the mortgage or anyone who may also have an interest in the property or reservation to the timber if the seller does not have clear title to the property and its associated timber.

Also be aware of the timber rights on lands sold under a land contract and your state laws regarding the wife as also being a joint owner. All must be in agreement to the cutting of the timber.

[Ox]

My mortgage states nothing is to be cut without a bunch of paperwork and such.  I guess I won't charge them for the cutting of trees that was threatening "their" investment.  Or the harvesting of trees for milling into lumber to improve "their" investment.  Truth be told, they don't need to know a darn thing in my view.  They're basically tripling their money over 30 years with minimum payments so I don't feel too bad about things...

[Puffergas]

First track we bought, long time ago, was from a young man. But when we looked it up, he didn't own it, his mother did. She did sign the contract for sonny, with a sour look. It was mainly firewood.