Getting a woodlot to cut

mf40diesel · April 02, 2017, 09:07:41 AM

So... asking for a little advice if I may. By trade I am a merchant mariner, which I have been doing for nearly 20 years. But my hobby has been logging and heavy equipment, skidders / trucks etc... loved it since I was a little boy. Due to the extreme slump in the oil field, may be looking at a little extra time home this summer.

I spend a lot of time in the woods, and am decent enough at felling trees, and getting pretty good at running my skidder. I will be honest, I have huge holes in my logging knowledge, know the equipment okay, but know very little about the business side, very little meaning basically nothing. So far all I have pretty much been doing is maintaining views for people and cutting pretty much all hardwood (all people along my road), this is awesome, and I am having a great time, but keeping all the wood for firewood for myself and the landowners themselves.

This summer I am going to be working towards getting my CDL, which has been something I have wanted to do forever, and I would also love to try to put the skidder to work for real a bit. Not trying to get out of sailing by any means, but would love to find a lot to cut for someone (I know that I need to get insurance). I think 20 -30 acres would keep my busy for a quite a while. I know that the wood market in Maine has certainly been better, but where I live in Western Maine I think at least there is enough wood to keep one guy and a cable skidder doing something?

Any idea how to go about actually taking the plunge to do it? Any thoughts?

thecfarm · April 02, 2017, 09:24:50 AM

Not many guys ith a chainsaw and a skidder. Or so I thought. ;D There is 3 guys like you in about 3 miles on the way to work. Been meaning to get some pictures of that.
I think in Maine you need to be certified to cut on others land,or cut under someone that has it. Meaning to sell logs to a sawmill. Pulp you should be able to put into someones contract. But the way that market is.............
I alway got away with the above because I only cut on my land.
CDL? Would be hard to do both in my eyes. The mills want the wood fresh,and if you are driving who cutting?
I was real lucky when we was cutting. Had a driver and there was some guys like us that kept him busy. Just small time guys that got a few loads a week out.

TKehl · April 02, 2017, 10:05:00 AM

First, I know nothing about your local specifics. This is just targeting customers.

Can you trailer your skidder now? I'm guessing no which is probably why you mention "people along your road". If you will be wheeling it to locations, sit down with Google maps and figure out how far you can take it without getting in trouble. Get a plat map and target properties in your "zone" too small for big operations, then looks at them on maps with Earth view to see if they may have good timber. Make a flyer of some sort stating your services. Go door to door in your targeted area. Make a short pitch showing your flyer, then wait for comments and LISTEN. If they ask a question after your pitch, that is a real good sign. You may get a lot of no's, but it sounds like you don't need many to say yes to be busy for a while. You will also get several "later in the future" and "no, but can you do xxx" that is likely in a similar line.

If you can trailer your skidder, I'd still do the above, but also post flyers at local farm stores, tractor dealers, and mingle at local auctions as the locals (at least here) consider them social events and come out to talk and MAYBE bid ;).

Don't forget to tell your local friends what you are doing. They won't generally go out of their way, but if it comes up in conversation then they "know a guy" and you will get some calls.

mf40diesel · April 02, 2017, 10:55:13 AM

Thanks for the advice... and yes, you are seemingly a good detective. so far they are all on my road, and I have a skidder trail that links all of the properties to my own.

I cannot trailer my machine, even despite the mighty cummins, the skidder is too heavy. Perhaps for a really short distance, but wouldn't be legal and I don't have a trailer to haul as much as my 225 weighs anyway.

You're angle is right what I was looking at too, most, not all, but most of the guys in my area are pretty big. Buncher, 2 or more skidders, crane chippers etc... what would keep me busy for a month would probably take them a weekend, therefore not sure for 10 -20 acres they would even go through the expense of moving. Of course payments dictate everything, so not really sure.

I would love to be able to cut a load or two a week.

ThecFarm, as for the CLP program, I don't think it is required, but I think it is definitely preferred. As luck would have it, the Gray class (which is closest to me, was last week) and I was out here (sea), and right now I am out here for all of them!

As for the CDL, if i am able to get a woodlot, that would take priority, driving would be when I could fit it in. Definitely can't let the softwood age!

Stephen Alford · April 02, 2017, 11:23:22 AM

Business has to be market driven. Someone has to pay you a reasonable rate for what you do or produce. I know that you already know this but try to incorporate this concept into every decision. Tkhel has a very good idea and just to tweak it a bit you might go to your local post office and they will place it in every mailbox in your area for a very reasonable price. The email connection has proved to be very productive and convenient. Good luck

killamplanes · April 02, 2017, 11:39:41 AM

I don't know anything about your area or how it works. But the first thing that would dictate this venture would be a market for your product. Find a sawmill and/or pulp mill. So what it takes to sell to them. Minumum tonnage, bdft, grade of wood, size etc. Unless you need a hole bunch of firewood or want to get into selling firewood your trees your cutting have to go somewhere. And if I was a wood lot owner and you wanted to cut MY trees these would be the first questions I would ask. Next quistion how much am I (landowner) gonna make. So you (logger) need to find the best $$$ for my trees, so you need to now sawmill prices pulp etc. Alot of research to do in my opinion. Some can be learned hard school but the $$ part and landowners $$ in my opinion needs to be known up front...

brianJ · April 02, 2017, 04:04:46 PM

Trailering can or should be easily hired. With as little as you will be moving I bet it will also be cheaper than having your own rig.

OH logger · April 02, 2017, 07:33:07 PM

again I don't know your area, but when I started I contract logged for other sawmills. I also bought a few of my own jobs ON A SHARE BASIS. I learned A LOT cutting jobs for other guys. sounds mean to say but I kinda learned on someone elses dime. luckily I learn kinda fast. also buying jobs on percentage was helpful to learn to price stuff and learn the business side of things. I had no way to haul the skidder then so I hired it. the mills I cut for or sold to trucked the logs. its not a sure fire way to be a millionaire in a year but I doubt you expected that when u bought a skidder. its the way I learned though.

BargeMonkey · April 02, 2017, 10:48:42 PM

It's kind of funny, your the 4th boat guy I know of cutting wood on his time off, myself and 1 guy who ran an ex Crowley tug have made the transition to wood cutter basically full-time. I renewed and can go sit for my 1st, I have no plans of it, I could care less what they pay I'm done with the industry.
I don't know how Maine works but you've got a pile of guys on here who can tell you exactly how the certification works. Ny is still optional, like anything else if you have it you get preference most of the time. Down here a decent guy with a cable skidder who isn't out to butcher everything in sight has more work than he can handle, especially if you do a clean job. A 2500-3500 truck with a decent trailer has more than enough snot to move a 225, it's when you get into the 240-460, around here that's not a huge thing. I've got a picture of my 460 behind a single axle /671, looked like a monkey on a football.

mf40diesel · April 03, 2017, 09:33:30 AM

I wish I could make the transition full time, shipping is getting tiring. Off subject, but I spent nearly 15 years on a big hopper dredge, left there and came to the oil field where currently I am Capt of a drill ship. To say it is not fun would be a huge understatement. There are regulations everywhere, surely, but nothing like this. It's mind blowing.

As for cutting wood, again I could be totally wrong, but I still feel like there is a niche for the pick-up/cable skidder / chain saw guy. I've got a good friend that is steady, and as best I can tell, he does really well. (did it very smartly, started with an old beat up, worn out franklin, and slowly has worked his way up a very very clean TJ 380C that I think he will have till the end... key to it, he did it all without ever having a payment, just bought what he could afford at the time, including his house!)

While there are some big landowners in the southern half of the state, I still have to believe that there isn't too many, relatively speaking, that have pieces of land big enough to attract the big mechanical operations.

Similiar to you Barge, I have plenty of time to renew in Feb when my license is due, so really I have 4 years before I have licensing issues in the sea faring world.

Maine logger88 · April 03, 2017, 06:22:05 PM

As far as certification goes like barge says it's not required but you sometimes get preference especially when markets are tight. I have gotten along ok so far without being certified but I am doing the course this year I've got the time right now and figure it can't hurt.

mf40diesel · April 03, 2017, 08:19:58 PM

Maine Logger88, where are you taking it? Not that I will be in it as I am at work a few more weeks. I sent an email to the folks that run the program, it was sent back saying un-deliverable? I cut and pasted it, so Im pretty sure it wasn't me.

I will call them when I get home. Perhaps they can do another one somewhere else?? Jackman perhaps, which is where their address is.

Thank you all so much for the advice.

I feel like I should clarify a comment from before, clearly there are plenty of big land owners in the southern half, the big operators around me are steady trucking wood.. However there are also a ton of the smaller folks, that own 20, 30 odd acres that are in tree growth. Again, I have no clue really, but building a big enough landing, moving a buncher, slasher, chipper and skidders has to take some serious time, if the lot to cut is only 15 acres, i feel like that might not attract the bigger operators.

I'm trying to learn. Thank you fellas

thecfarm · April 03, 2017, 08:37:57 PM

One more thing. Know any of the Big Guys? They don't want those small jobs. They could pass them onto you. But you would have to prove yourself to them too.

Maine logger88 · April 03, 2017, 08:41:54 PM

I'm taking it in skowhegan it starts tomorrow. Should be plenty of work around to be had for a cable skidder once you get a good reputation work will find you

mike_belben · April 03, 2017, 10:35:05 PM

Find every sawmill thats buying logs in your area. Take your car, go to each and pre-run the route so you arent getting lost and turned around in truck/trailer. Get a price and spec sheet from each place and triple check that its got trim amounts on it. If it says we buy 8/10/12 long that probably means MINIMUM 8'3/10'3/12'3. Personally i tend to buck 6 inches of trim then i have an option to pull another 3" off either end if its punky or stained or has ant hole, etc.

At each mill, talk to owner or manager and say youve got equipment and are headed into logging.. Ask them each for advice, the ones who arent talkers, ask what the worst mistakes he frequently sees are, thatll get him ranting. Find out what each one specializes in. One will pay more for white oak, another better for hickory. If you harvest this information and share it with your target client, they will gain confidence in you for being A, researched and B, honest. Logging is a laboring business, there is no reason to be secretive with information. Youll make more sales as an educator.

Pallets and pulp dont pay a lot but tie logs.. They might make up the brunt of your bd/ft because they can be real knotty if straight and sound amd still bring a fare price. Here its 9'3" for single tie or 16'6" for switch tie which pays a better rate.

Also, sawlogs isnt like cutting firewood. Learn your bore cuts and holding wood. You want nice clean low stumps and no pulled fibers.

Do not fail to consider timber stand improvement on a fee basis. A poor guy with land sells his timber to get money. A rich guy with land pays someone to make it pretty. Many many developer lots have been high graded then sold off. Crappy species and crappy trees will eventually overtake a good forest. There is no reason why you cant make good money charging for TSI, hauling the culls to your own place and processing firewood. Lord knows they pay a premium for it in the northeast.

BargeMonkey · April 04, 2017, 01:32:49 AM

Down here it's a no brainer for the certification, I get paid more for the BMP work, I get 5.00 more per mbdft at certain mills, when pulp is rough I will get a few loads in when others wont. You find a forester who likes your work you will have all the work you want, like Mike just posted you can make money doing TSI which alot of guys run away from or do a marginal job. Knowing who your going to sell logs to is very important, the wrong stuff to the wrong place can cost you a bunch of money. I'm probably not making out the best with the place I've been selling to but the buyer is an honest straight up guy who scales fair, sometimes you've got to find a middle ground with logs.
If you do good work people will hunt you down to cut their place, I really don't chase wood and I'm not going hungry. Alot of work here for a cable skidder /saw, it might not be the greatest wood but your not paying huge stumpage and in the end I always do pretty good on decent small jobs versus the big jobs with long skids. If you do start buying wood take the time to really walk a job and figure things out, lay your skid road out so your not smashing everything, I've honestly cut some jobs the wrong way and learned from it. I haven't ever had trouble but I WILL NOT cut a job if I'm not 110% sure where the lines are, always check, wearing an ankle bracelet / felony even if it's a mistake isn't a risk I take. I pull tax maps with measured boundaries at my county tax office alot, the resources are out there. Some of these new apps for the phone are accurate within 10ft, it all helps.
I've been GOM free for almost 4yrs now, I made way too many Bolivar / Corpus/ Boothville crew changes. 😂 I go back the 13th, really trying to commit that I've got 28 days left and I'm done.

mike_belben · April 04, 2017, 07:57:53 AM

Whats GOM stand for?

A point i should add that the property boundary subject reminded me of.. Creek crossings. Sooner or later youll have to put in a culvert or bridge or ford. There are many guidelines to this stuff by state, know them first. The worst scenario is if the creek is at the bottom of a big valley and 4 skidder ruts collect runoff from 10 acres on each side and pour it right into the stream one night while youre sleeping. If you get caught clouding up some watershed its gonna get ugly.

When you see flowing water, think long and hard about your plan to divert and contain the runoff. This may require farming out the job to a dozer or excavator. Culverts, rock and silt fence add up. Keep it at the front of your mind.

mf40diesel · April 04, 2017, 01:14:43 PM

GOM stands for Gulf of Mexico. When the oil fields were cranking a couple years ago... and fuel was extraordinarily expensive at the pump... there were 1000's of us mariners working on the coast of Texas, Louisiana, Mississippi and a lesser amount in Alabama. Truly amazing. When my ship was at 100% we would have 170 people on board, two to 3 supply vessels each with 10-15 people on at any one time. Then the logistical support ashore... Huge operation with massive day rates. The industry did it to themselves. We got too good at drilling, and we way way over built with new ships. Where we are anchored there are 6, 800 million dollar drillships within a few miles... all stacked.

Anyway, back to logging. Thanks so much for all the advice. I will plan at some point to get into the Maine CLP class, cannot get in any trouble.

When I get home I have a pretty long list of repairs and maintenance to do to the old skidder... and lots of research too. Although my employment status might play the hand for me, really thinking about trying to do it. Logging has been my dream forever, may never have a more clear opportunity to do it then now.