A complete list of things I learned from building a home with green lumber.

[yukon cornelius]

1. Don't

This has been a complete list of what I learned from building a home with green lumber.  ;D

[Don P]

What specific problems did you encounter?

[yukon cornelius]

We used ash. Red oak, white oak, and hickory with a few erc pieces here and there. I was very inexperienced sawing as well. Immediately we had huge moisture issues for the first winter at least. It was just in the dry when we moved in. Interior was left open to dry for more than a year. had done my best to add percentages of overage to allow for shrinkage. What I had not accounted for was uneven shrink in the same boards. As in one end shrank 3/4" the middle maybe 1/4 the other may be 1/2. Where the studs met the sill plates and and top some are still flush but most are not. To come back and sheetrock 2/3 or so have to be planed flush. Other major issues are cracking (splitting), twisting, cupping, and sagging. The house is paid for and I am able to clean it up and make it look nice and right, but overall, the amount of work fixing and replacing these issues makes it not worth it. In my opinion. I would saw and sell the green lumber, trade, or something else before I did it this way again. What is invaluable though is the experience and journey of this process. Cutting the logs off our property, skidding them back, milling them, and building is something myself and boys will never forget.

[WV Sawmiller]

YC,

   I am assuming you built with green lumber because you did not have the time and/or money to wait and build with properly air dried or KD lumber. If that is the case - what would/could you have done different? We have all spent more in the long run because we did not have the time or money up front and that is just part of life. Thanks for sharing.

[moodnacreek]

Green lumber is really only good for bending or making some kind of shrink fit. There is a lot of bad information about it. Cedar, white pine and hemlock that is winter cut and used for small framing members especially if rift and quarter sawn, maybe. Never hardwood.

[yukon cornelius]

 Time was the biggest reason. Second would have to be lack of experience. I had done a lot of online research prior to starting and thought I had enough knowledge. My inability to look at the lumber and predict what it might do contributed to issues. I truly believe if I had to do it again with what I know now, I could have done a better job but some of it could not be predicted. at least not by me. My advice to anyone would be wait and do it right the first time.

[Peter Drouin]

No Pine or Hemlock over there? I have built a ton of stuff with it and had no trouble.

[yukon cornelius]

No pine or hemlock around here. Hardwoods and ERC. 

[Brad_bb]

For stud type construction, I'd have recommended using quality standard construction lumber from a supplier that supplies the pros (not box stores as sometimes the MC is probably higher than you might want).  I'd have recommended air drying and selling your hardwood lumber to offset construction costs.  Timberframing is done green all the time.  And stuff can and does move, but the envelope material is not green typically these days.

[Magicman]

A couple of months of air drying will easily drop our SYP framing lumber's MC into the teens, which is about what our store bought framing lumber is.

[Southside]

If you see "S-GRN" stamped on structural lumber it never even went through a kiln, it was air dried then run through the moulder before being shipped to your local lumber yard.  Personally I disagree with the practice but it appears my opinion does not much matter.   ;D

[barbender]

I wouldn't frame something I wanted to close in with hardwood, just because it takes much longer to dry and has more uneven shrinkage- and I have access to softwoods that are more predictable. I wouldn't hesitate at all to frame a house with green softwoods and leave it open inside for a few months so it could dry. I did more shimming on the store bought lumber I used in my house than the rough sawn. In my experience, to do nice sheetrock work there will always be shimming and straightening of studs, etc. One thing I found at Home Depot that I haven't seen since, were paper shims that were 1-1/2"x48". They were probably a little less than 1/16" thick. It was very fast to work with, as you can just tear it, and you could build up strips to make tapered shims when needed.

[Ron Wenrich]

My uncles were carpenters as well as my granddad.  I remember a discussion about building with green wood they had back in the '60s.  One uncle felt you could do it if you framed it up and let it sit for about a year.  A couple thought it would work, a couple others thought it wouldn't be worth the time.  

I got to thinking about what did they do before they had kilns?  My house was built in the 1850s.  Basically a post and beam built on a rubble stone foundation.  They used wide pine board and batten for the exterior, and that was put up green.  It became deeply checked, so I replaced it with wide pine board and batten, but the wood was 150 yrs. newer.  What I did notice on the old pine is that the growth rings were about 20 yrs/inch.  The newer pine was 8-10 yrs/in.  That's an average growth rate for most wood in my area.  

My brother-in-law has about 40 yrs experience in doing contracting work.  He also spends time as a missionary, so he has spots where he misses work.  This past year he put an addition on his son's place.  He had major problems with store bought wood.  Walls moved sometimes by 1/4" or so.  Building code now requires the drywall to be screwed in and inspected.  Seems that there has been an epidemic of nail pop in dry wall.  They thought it was due to poor workmanship, so they required screws and an inspection to make sure there was no cheating.  My brother-in-law blames it on poor quality wood.  I agree.

Before there were kilns, trees grew slowly.  There wasn't the demand to see how fast we could turn over fiber, and forests were vast.  We were still cutting old growth forests in PA in the early 1900s.  But, that has all changed and now its to see how short you can make your rotation.  Throw in a bunch of high grading and you reduce the good quality seed sources as well as degradation of the stand.  We have very little plantation pine in my area.  Markets just don't support them.  Seems to me that they're cutting smaller trees than they used to, which means a lot more juvenile wood and wider growth rings.  From what I've seen of lumber stacks at the box stores, stability is a problem even with store bought "kiln dried" wood.  

I think you might be able to build with green wood if you have the skill and the right kind of wood.  I'm not so sure that we grow that kind any more.  At least, not on purpose.

[Southside]

Another factor that impacted structures built back then was they were no where near as tight as modern homes and did not have central heating systems.  Fireplaces and leaky walls would make for a great kiln - lots of air movement, a heat source, and a giant vent to get rid of moisture.  

These days most framing lumber will be 19% MC when it leaves the mega kiln, thus the KD-19 stamp. We dry hardwood down to 7% to prevent movement, so that leaves a whole lot of movement left to happen in the framing material as the modern climate controlled house finishes removing the moisture from the frame.   

[Bruno of NH]

I built a very large log home in 1995 for one of my best customers that owned a trucking company. We used all green d logs ( pine) and green hemlock for all the roof and interior wall framing.
The subflooring was all planed hemlock boards layed on a 45°.
This was all green wood.
After framing the roof was dried in and windows installed.
Then let set for 6 months with fans running before the interior was started. 
Every thing was figured for log shinkage.
It has all stood the stand of time.

[Don P]

The way I look at it, building with green material isn't really about improving the quality of the finished product, it is about time constraints. It is never better to build green but sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do.

Back in the day the framing was often put up green and the green finish materials were air drying while the frame was built. Drying sheds are not a new thing though, this discussion started under a stone overhang by the campfire thousands of years ago :D.

To compensate, plaster was often the flatwork material, plaster "grounds" were shimmed and tacked up around openings to give plumb reference lines to float the walls to. Here the plaster was burnt lime from the kiln about 5 miles from here. The plasterers dug a pit out of the way at the back of the jobsite or used troughs to slake the quicklime, that was going on as the wood dried and got better as it aged. Clay was being dug out of a tolerable natural clay bank, the bricks were being made, air dried and stacked in a "clamp" a pile stacked to create a firebox and multi flued kiln of the air dried bricks. The sawing waste and Much more wood fired the clamp which then cooled and was sorted by degree of firing, the overfired were firebrick, then the well vitrified commons and finally the outer bricks from the clamp were larger low or unfired "salmons" pink not red. Those low fired brick went into the exterior walls as nogging in early frames. It was high mass plaster backing. It blocked draft and provided a thermal storage mass. Depending on the house that work progression could easily cover a couple of few years.

Rougher construction was board covered walls, hatchet marks and shims are often found on the framing behind wood finishes, trying to bring the framing into plane. Someone recently made the comment that folks back then used the best they had in their houses. My experience has been different. These folks were dirt poor, the best went to the sawmill for greenbacks, lower quality was used in the frame.
"They don't build them like they used to", which is why we have grading.

Tight ring counts in oak means weaker material because there is a high proportion of vessels per unit volume. In pine you can start to lose the proportion of latewood at Very high ring counts, that is not to say the high proportions of juvenile and compression wood we see in fast growth stuff is good by any stretch just pointing out that a lot of what people mythologize about old buildings is often just that, wishful thinking. Very often that old timer was just making shelter.

What I found in log construction relates to YC's comment about different rates of shrinkage. A knot has grain swirling around it and shrinks less than the straight grained area right beside it. If you bear on an edge with a knot in it the area between the knots is going to open as it shrinks more while drying. Also, the outer tangential grain, the outer edges of a log wall, shrinks twice as much as the radial grain in the center of the wall stack. You can build dollar bill tight but it isn't going to be as tight if green. I learned those lessons over about 12 years building 60 or so log home "kits" from manufacturers with differing ideas on how to build green and a few that had dry materials. There was no doubt in my mind at the end of that, dry is a whole lot less grief.

We sawed dimensional lumber for a house over this past winter and early spring, the framing is tulip poplar and has been air drying, it is now below storebought framing lumber moisture specs. Between other work we got the foundation done last Friday. That's sort of the rate of the farmer/builder of yore.  We'll plane and straightline it over the next few weeks, a step many people skip, again that decision isn't about quality it is about time. Our wood is closer to SelStruc grade rather than the #2 that would typically come from the building supply so there is a big bump, we turned the lower grade stuff into sheathing wood.

[WV Sawmiller]

   I worked and vacationed in some real remote and primitive areas and loved to take note of how the homes were built. I watched women in Cameroon making mud blocks by pouring soupy red clay in a 4 sided board form about the size of our 8X8X16 cinderblocks. They'd tap the form to loosen it and lift it off leaving the block to air dry. The blocks had 4 smooth sides and 2 rough ones. The man (I never could determine if he was the father or husband) was using soupy red clay as mortar and had a string and plumb bob to keep the walls straight and it looked pretty good.

  I watched Masai women in Kenya building their homes (about 20' square and hardly 5' tall with 1/3 partitioned off and used to keep the calves in at night so the hyenas, lions and leopards did not get them and to keep them from nursing at night so the women could milk the cows in the morning - they might get nearly a quart from a real good milker) with some 4" posts in the corners and brush woven between them. The sides were built up in stages and plastered with green cow manure collected every morning. The house was built in the perimeter fence and each wife had her own house and private gate she closed with brush ever day. When dry the manure had no smell.

  The Himba in Namibia built their round huts and plastered the walls and made a paved floor with a mixture of green cow manure and sand. When dried you'd have sworn it was poured in place concrete. The round huts probably gave more space per amount of materials used. Also many tribes thought evil spirits were evil little men who hid in the corners so round huts gave them no place to hide.

  Basically the people built with whatever materials were available. I've seen roofs thatched with palm frond panels, millet straw, bark, etc. Corrugated metal (They called it Zinc) was in big demand because it did not have to be replaced every 3-4 years but the thatched roofs were actually much cooler.

  Bamboo was real popular as well as long raffia palm frond stems for sides and rafters. (Bamboo was in Africa and S. America but I only knew of Raffia palms in Africa). Okay, enough rambling and reminiscing.

[scsmith42]

The way I look at it, building with green material isn't really about improving the quality of the finished product, it is about time constraints. It is never better to build green but sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do.

Back in the day the framing was often put up green and the green finish materials were air drying while the frame was built. Drying sheds are not a new thing though, this discussion started under a stone overhang by the campfire thousands of years ago :D.

To compensate, plaster was often the flatwork material, plaster "grounds" were shimmed and tacked up around openings to give plumb reference lines to float the walls to. Here the plaster was burnt lime from the kiln about 5 miles from here. The plasterers dug a pit out of the way at the back of the jobsite or used troughs to slake the quicklime, that was going on as the wood dried and got better as it aged. Clay was being dug out of a tolerable natural clay bank, the bricks were being made, air dried and stacked in a "clamp" a pile stacked to create a firebox and multi flued kiln of the air dried bricks. The sawing waste and Much more wood fired the clamp which then cooled and was sorted by degree of firing, the overfired were firebrick, then the well vitrified commons and finally the outer bricks from the clamp were larger low or unfired "salmons" pink not red. Those low fired brick went into the exterior walls as nogging in early frames. It was high mass plaster backing. It blocked draft and provided a thermal storage mass. Depending on the house that work progression could easily cover a couple of few years.

Rougher construction was board covered walls, hatchet marks and shims are often found on the framing behind wood finishes, trying to bring the framing into plane. Someone recently made the comment that folks back then used the best they had in their houses. My experience has been different. These folks were dirt poor, the best went to the sawmill for greenbacks, lower quality was used in the frame.
"They don't build them like they used to", which is why we have grading.

Tight ring counts in oak means weaker material because there is a high proportion of vessels per unit volume. In pine you can start to lose the proportion of latewood at Very high ring counts, that is not to say the high proportions of juvenile and compression wood we see in fast growth stuff is good by any stretch just pointing out that a lot of what people mythologize about old buildings is often just that, wishful thinking. Very often that old timer was just making shelter.

What I found in log construction relates to YC's comment about different rates of shrinkage. A knot has grain swirling around it and shrinks less than the straight grained area right beside it. If you bear on an edge with a knot in it the area between the knots is going to open as it shrinks more while drying. Also, the outer tangential grain, the outer edges of a log wall, shrinks twice as much as the radial grain in the center of the wall stack. You can build dollar bill tight but it isn't going to be as tight if green. I learned those lessons over about 12 years building 60 or so log home "kits" from manufacturers with differing ideas on how to build green and a few that had dry materials. There was no doubt in my mind at the end of that, dry is a whole lot less grief.

We sawed dimensional lumber for a house over this past winter and early spring, the framing is tulip poplar and has been air drying, it is now below storebought framing lumber moisture specs. Between other work we got the foundation done last Friday. That's sort of the rate of the farmer/builder of yore.  We'll plane and straightline it over the next few weeks, a step many people skip, again that decision isn't about quality it is about time. Our wood is closer to SelStruc grade rather than the #2 that would typically come from the building supply so there is a big bump, we turned the lower grade stuff into sheathing wood.

Don, every time I read one of your posts I learn something, and in most instances I learn many somethings.  Thanks for taking the time to share.
Scott

[apm]

The way I look at it, building with green material isn't really about improving the quality of the finished product, it is about time constraints. It is never better to build green but sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do.

Back in the day the framing was often put up green and the green finish materials were air drying while the frame was built. Drying sheds are not a new thing though, this discussion started under a stone overhang by the campfire thousands of years ago :D.

To compensate, plaster was often the flatwork material, plaster "grounds" were shimmed and tacked up around openings to give plumb reference lines to float the walls to. Here the plaster was burnt lime from the kiln about 5 miles from here. The plasterers dug a pit out of the way at the back of the jobsite or used troughs to slake the quicklime, that was going on as the wood dried and got better as it aged. Clay was being dug out of a tolerable natural clay bank, the bricks were being made, air dried and stacked in a "clamp" a pile stacked to create a firebox and multi flued kiln of the air dried bricks. The sawing waste and Much more wood fired the clamp which then cooled and was sorted by degree of firing, the overfired were firebrick, then the well vitrified commons and finally the outer bricks from the clamp were larger low or unfired "salmons" pink not red. Those low fired brick went into the exterior walls as nogging in early frames. It was high mass plaster backing. It blocked draft and provided a thermal storage mass. Depending on the house that work progression could easily cover a couple of few years.

Rougher construction was board covered walls, hatchet marks and shims are often found on the framing behind wood finishes, trying to bring the framing into plane. Someone recently made the comment that folks back then used the best they had in their houses. My experience has been different. These folks were dirt poor, the best went to the sawmill for greenbacks, lower quality was used in the frame.
"They don't build them like they used to", which is why we have grading.

Tight ring counts in oak means weaker material because there is a high proportion of vessels per unit volume. In pine you can start to lose the proportion of latewood at Very high ring counts, that is not to say the high proportions of juvenile and compression wood we see in fast growth stuff is good by any stretch just pointing out that a lot of what people mythologize about old buildings is often just that, wishful thinking. Very often that old timer was just making shelter.

What I found in log construction relates to YC's comment about different rates of shrinkage. A knot has grain swirling around it and shrinks less than the straight grained area right beside it. If you bear on an edge with a knot in it the area between the knots is going to open as it shrinks more while drying. Also, the outer tangential grain, the outer edges of a log wall, shrinks twice as much as the radial grain in the center of the wall stack. You can build dollar bill tight but it isn't going to be as tight if green. I learned those lessons over about 12 years building 60 or so log home "kits" from manufacturers with differing ideas on how to build green and a few that had dry materials. There was no doubt in my mind at the end of that, dry is a whole lot less grief.

We sawed dimensional lumber for a house over this past winter and early spring, the framing is tulip poplar and has been air drying, it is now below storebought framing lumber moisture specs. Between other work we got the foundation done last Friday. That's sort of the rate of the farmer/builder of yore.  We'll plane and straightline it over the next few weeks, a step many people skip, again that decision isn't about quality it is about time. Our wood is closer to SelStruc grade rather than the #2 that would typically come from the building supply so there is a big bump, we turned the lower grade stuff into sheathing wood.

Don, every time I read one of your posts I learn something, and in most instances I learn many somethings.  Thanks for taking the time to share.
Scott

I couldn't agree more. Don is a treasure trove of information. Just the perfect mix of book learning and practical experience. He's learned it and he's done it. 
Greg

[Don P]

Where's the aw shucks smiley  
Thanks, that makes me feel good, I figured I was wandering off into the weeds again  :D
I really enjoy Howard's experiences and observations on how other folks do things.

Greg, Rick dropped by the jobsite this morning, the first trusses are up over your old Belsaw, he should be under roof soon.

[Dan_Shade]

Thanks for the interesting reads. 

Building with green lumber definitely has its challenges. 

[apm]

Where's the aw shucks smiley  
Thanks, that makes me feel good, I figured I was wandering off into the weeds again  :D
I really enjoy Howard's experiences and observations on how other folks do things.

Greg, Rick dropped by the jobsite this morning, the first trusses are up over your old Belsaw, he should be under roof soon.

Without pictures, I'll just have to assume you're telling us the truth!  :D

[Stephen1]

It is a always a pleasure to read don's information.

Where's the aw shucks smiley  
Thanks, that makes me feel good, I figured I was wandering off into the weeds again  :D
I really enjoy Howard's experiences and observations on how other folks do things.

Greg, Rick dropped by the jobsite this morning, the first trusses are up over your old Belsaw, he should be under roof soon.

Without pictures, I'll just have to assume you're telling us the truth!  :D

APM you have a point, no pictures , then .......

[alan gage]

Where the studs met the sill plates and and top some are still flush but most are not. To come back and sheetrock 2/3 or so have to be planed flush.

Don't know how much it would help but much of the time I intentionally don't join sheets over studs. I keep some 1x3 boards or pieces of plywood handy, cut to just under 4' long, and I get my sheets to break in between stud bays. The 1x3 boards act as a backer to join them together. Benefits are a wide screwing flange rather than a 1.5" stud, not having to deal with studs that aren't perfectly spaced, and supposedly less prone to joint cracking because the joint isn't as stressed as it would be if it was on a rigid stud (that might try to warp). I would think it would do a better job of evening out a wavy wall due to warped studs as well.

Alan

[Bruno of NH]

Alan,
When I was younger I would help my friend who owns a commercial drywall company.
We did the 1x3 breaking off the studs on occasions when the framing was done poorly.
It made for a much better drywall job.