Question for circle saw owners

[backwoodsdave]

Having been bit by the sawmill bug I've been wondering what advantages there would be in owning a circular saw in addition to my small band mill, something like a belsaw m14 type setup, there use to be a couple around here in the 80s but seems they went away when the band mills got popular, I don't know of any operating in this area at all, maybe there's a reason, I grew up around logging and sawmills and as a youngster enjoyed seeing the mill in action, being a mechanical type person I think it would be very satisfying to make lumber with one, I know finding one may be a chore but I also wonder what would be a realistic price range for a decent pto driven unit, also what disadvantages are there to cutting marketable lumber with a circle saw, this would mostly a hobby saw for myself, maybe sell some extra or do some beam cutting etc.

[Ron Wenrich]

For the most part, circle mills cut a whole lot more wood than a band mill.  Sure, there are expensive band mills that will out produce some of the circle mills, but from a cost standpoint, you'll get more mill for the money.  Those Belsaws go for under $5k.  You can find bigger mills for a bit over that price.  Sponsor Sawmill Exchange has a listing of mills for sale.  Look at the list on the left.

Advantages are reduced saw costs, more production.  Disadvantages are reduced yield due to saw kerf, you might get wider boards, depending on the type of timber you're cutting, the mill is stationary.  

If you're cutting small diameter logs that aren't too long, a Belsaw can do well.  When you get into logs that are a much longer than your carriage bed, you'll have problems with them bowing, due to stress in the logs.  A bigger carriage means more headblocks and longer lengths.  

[Ianab]

Larger size circle mills can certainly get some production, but for a small scale operation it's hard to justify. 

A good addition to a band saw is a Swing Blade / Chain slabber to handle the oversize logs. 

[jdeere540a]

There still seems to be a few around my part of NH. Mostly just sitting. I got mine by trading haying the owners field for two years in trad for the mill. I had to totally rebuild the wood frame, change the mandral bearings and have new wheels made for the carriage. It was a lot of work but saws good and enjoyable to run now. Keep everything in adjustment and take your time and they make nice lumber. Mine was built in the 40s and I still use it a lot.

[moodnacreek]

Try to stay away from the Bellsaw. An earlier model Frick, Meadows or similar manual mill set up on steel beams is the way to go.

[Bert]

I dont think you can go wrong adding a cheapish circle mill to the mix. Even a handset mill will produce alot of lumber in short time. Set up properly, there will be no issues with quality. For the rustic crowd, the circle sawn look cant be beat. As mentioned above, Id go with a Frick, Meadows etc. Much more mill for the money.

[backwoodsdave]

Try to stay away from the Bellsaw. An earlier model Frick, Meadows or similar manual mill set up on steel beams is the way to go.

What would be some things to consider as far as staying away from belsaw ? In particular the newer ones with the metal frame instead of a wood frame.

[Bert]

Ive never had a bellsaw but have seen them in operation. Not saying there is anything wrong with them but are pretty lightweight compared to the others mentioned. To me its just a homeowners grade vs professionals grade kind of comparison. For here and there type sawing Im sure a bellsaw would be just fine.

[jdeere540a]

Backwoodsdave
The biggest problem with a belsaw is the carriage is very light duty also the mandrel is light compared to the bigger mills. As long as you keep that in mind and don't get rough with them they work good. They won't out produce bigger circular mills but they do cut faster then most band mills when set up right.    Also heavy duty mills like a frick are way stronger but very hard to run alone. The only way you will get full production is to have a 2 or 3 man crew.

[moodnacreek]

The Bellsaw has very annoying problems that are hard to correct. I used one for years and made improvements on it and still maintain it for the present owner. The set works is horrible, there are no tapers and all but the smoothest logs get caught on the carriage. It is at best a cheap little saw rig handy for small straight logs like cedar.  A real old time hand set sawmill in good condition, although slow, can saw nasty, hard , dirty and frozen logs into lumber and last a life time. It can be endlessly up dated and automated if wanted.

[backwoodsdave]

Appreciate all the good info, certainly plenty to think about for sure, one thing I noticed when looking at a few photos and videos of the belsaw and frick style mill is it seems the pto driven belsaw would be a little more user friendly if working it with one man if I had to, reason being the drive unit located on the opposite side of the mill from the operator, if I'm correct in that observation that is.

[moodnacreek]

In spite of my negative comments, the bellsaw truly was a one man sawmill because there was no husk and power unit to walk around when sawing by yourself. If you could watch both mills in operation on a day when ugly logs had to be sawn you could see how a traditional mill can handle it and the bellsaw cannot.  When you are in the sawmill business you some times have to saw logs you never thought you would touch in order to fill orders like cribbing or blocking.

[backwoodsdave]

In spite of my negative comments, the bellsaw truly was a one man sawmill because there was no husk and power unit to walk around when sawing by yourself. If you could watch both mills in operation on a day when ugly logs had to be sawn you could see how a traditional mill can handle it and the bellsaw cannot.  When you are in the sawmill business you some times have to saw logs you never thought you would touch in order to fill orders like cribbing or blocking.

I appreciate all comments coming from folks with experience running these mills, and from what I've seen if I were to go into the sawmill business a step up would be wise I suppose, I'm usually a one man show the majority of the time and always have been when it comes to working, but I do recruit some help now and then when I need it, other than just always having wanted a mill to tinker with I have a longtime friend that is a custom home builder and he brought up the fact that no one has a circle mill close around and he has to source his rustic beams etc. from out of the county when he needs them, seems people like the saw mark look, that's what got me to thinking about a Belsaw again, it would just be another toy for me and my son when I needed help, and maybe sell off a beam or board now and then to pay for fuel and up keep etc.

[Ron Wenrich]

A little automation can go a long way.  Even on a handset operation.  An offbearing belt by the saw gets rid of a lot of walking back and forth.  A set of green chains can move lumber and slabs away and be sorted later.   Low tech and can be run by either hydraulics or small electric motors.  

When considering a type of mill you need to figure out what type of logs you're sawing, what product you want to produce, and what mill most efficiently takes logs to product in your dollar investment scheme.  If you want a hobby mill, those old handsets are a lot of fun and not real expensive.  

[backwoodsdave]

When considering a type of mill you need to figure out what type of logs you're sawing, what product you want to produce, and what mill most efficiently takes logs to product in your dollar investment scheme.  If you want a hobby mill, those old handsets are a lot of fun and not real expensive.  

Probably 90% of the logs I get and would be getting is standing dead pine, bug kill stuff I get from a good friend who is a logger, he also has a mill, an lt40, but gets way more than he needs so he just gives it away to move it, makes good lumber but the mills won't take it but the timber company wants it on the ground or gone, the mill would be just a hobby but if a dollar is to be made I don't mind that either, I built my little machine shop to just have for my own use if I need it but it does make a dollar now and then even though I'm not in the machine shop business, but that's always a bonus.

[mike_belben]

Im studying up here.  What do we mean by no tapers?  Is that to say the belsaw headblocks are ganged together and cannot offset independant of each other?

[Don P]

Exactly. I keep my tapers behind my left foot and throw one in when needed, slow but there's always a way. A Belsaw would do fine in pine but you are limited to around 14' and pay attention to Ron's first comment about the short carriage.

[mike_belben]

I had to think that threw a few times Don.

i think youre saying you have a belsaw or some other setworks that cant advance the headblocks independantly, and to compensate you put wedges behind the log to kick the flare side out and correct the taper?

Edit-   well.. Maybe to kick the small end out and cut sidewood along the grain rather than through it.  I dunno, im no sawyer. 

[Don P]

That's it. Sorry I was being obtuse :laugh:, yes I'll stick shims between the headblock and the log to put the heart or bark where it needs to be on the opening cuts.
If you go with a tapered log against the headblocks you'll go through the saw referenced off the taper of the far side. If I center the line of the pith parallel to the blade then I'm splitting the taper, or I can saw parallel to the bark which will make lumber with very little slope of grain running out of the board, stronger lumber. A bandmill has a bed roller that can be lifted to do the same thing

[mike_belben]

Thanks for the explanation.  

On big $ commercial saws with independant headblocks, how do they tend to move them and reference them to the operators eyeballs?  

I can imagine ballscrews and servo motors with rotary encoder feedback, or i guess i could also see hydraulic cylinders with linear glass scale encoders.

In general, i assume this dance is all up to the sawyers experienced eyeballs and the machine does whatever its told, whether right or wrong?

[longtime lurker]

Mike.

Electric over hydraulic or air, depends on the manufacturer.

Like a lot of things experience counts for less now: think auto setups where the log gets scanned and that picture gets sent to the computer which talks to the ordering system computer to see whats required then it develops a cutting pattern and pretty much all the sawyer does is sit there, click yes or no... and watch it all happen.
The only thing being that there wont be much further development of carriage type mills that I can see. They've become outdated as the big boys all shift to quads and linear processors, and the development money goes with them. A little bit will filter back to the old tech but... jeez I got a manufacturers brochure the other day and right at the back was a little page about them still doing sales and service of one man benches for small mills. (A one man bench in a well setup mill should be good for about 40 ton of logs a day) But the subtext was well.... dont bother us with this little stuff.

Cutting grade is a bit different in that sawyer experience still counts if you want to make the most $ from a log but seems in this industry you either got to be real small or real big: and either way you got to be lean and mean efficient just to survive.

[mike_belben]

Its funny you should say that.. Just this afternoon i was in my head rethinking a conversation that i had with the local big cheese logger a year ago maybe. (dozen guys, forwarders, harvesters, skidders, half dozen trucks, good reputation etc) he said that the only two ways to do well in logging was to be so huge you can control the market or so tiny that no one notices you.  

Debt free is my thing.  I care more about staying debt free than i do about making income.  Its very liberating. 

[jimparamedic]

I own an American and 2 Belsaws I like my circular sawmills and just like band mills they have good and bad points. I hope to add a small band saw soon to saw cants from the circular mill for siding and veneers. Also this well help save bands by not having dirt and rocks eating up the bands. Like said before by others production is a lot higher so sawing 2x lumber a circular mill is a plus.

[mike_belben]

How do circle mills handle iron strikes?  Id expect those carbide insert teeth to mow nails without notice, but does it tend to chip the tooth?

[Blaszer]

I work alone and have a bellsaw.. For the money invested, you can't beat it..I ran mine off a tractor pto for the past 3 years... I'm currently switching to a stationary engine so as not to tie up a tractor...One thing i did learn that I never realized, is that the pro spins opposite direction of an engine crank....So if you want to do the same, you'll need a reverser or to decide how you'll mount your drivetrain....I have a band mill that I haven't even started this year while the bellsaw has been working overtime

[longtime lurker]

How do circle mills handle iron strikes?  Id expect those carbide insert teeth to mow nails without notice, but does it tend to chip the tooth?

Yup.
Even a decent piece of sand lodged in the bark can chip a tooth - TCT is hard as all get out but quite brittle although there are a few different grades around with differing amounts of hardness/malleability. Theres also stellite which is softer so blunts faster but less inclined to chip and has higher abrasion resistance.
But thats okay... you just put the next one in. If you were cutting say tree service logs where iron is going to be common you just set a saw up with less teeth.
Circles are less expensive to run per unit of production then bands.

[jemmy]

I haven't milled anything off of my circle mill yet but I fear the day I hit a rail road spike, or a porcelain lag screw, heard they stop blades cold, and when you have a pto/diesel motor powering something and it hits an "immovable object" somethings gonna give somewhere and its happening reallll fast. Circle mill mishapps can be expensive to fix if something happens to blade. Haven't cut yet, but thankfully I have a 48" blade to practice and run through some yard trees with, and a 56" blade for when I trust myself, mill, and trees to cut appropriately. Also got a few boxes of teeth haha. Things can go wrong and be expensive, but when things run smooth these can be quite awesome machines. 

[jemmy]

I also have another blade that the previous owner sold me that has an entire tooth missing from hitting a rr spike and either needs re-hammered, or turned into a sign out front for the mill

[Ianab]

I haven't milled anything off of my circle mill yet but I fear the day I hit a rail road spike, or a porcelain lag screw, heard they stop blades cold, and when you have a pto/diesel motor powering something and it hits an "immovable object" somethings gonna give somewhere and its happening reallll fast.

You would want a "shear pin" or bolt in your drive some place. Usually a small high tensile bolt or pin that's expendable. Hay balers etc usually have them in the drive, used to be built into the flywheel on out old IH baler. If baler ate something it's couldn't digest, there would be a BANG, and you would be left with the flywheel on the front of the baler spinning away merrily, but no action past that point. But the PTO / tractor / flywheel weren't subject to that sudden stop. You carried a box of spare bolts and a couple of spanners in the tractor toolbox.

On a circle mill you are going to do something bad to the blade, and possibly a lot more expensive than a band saw, where you can throw the whole band, or a small circle where you only have 4 to 8 teeth to replace. But you don't want to rip up your PTO shaft or damage your tractor as well. 

[backwoodsdave]

I work alone and have a bellsaw.. For the money invested, you can't beat it..I ran mine off a tractor pto for the past 3 years... I'm currently switching to a stationary engine so as not to tie up a tractor...One thing i did learn that I never realized, is that the pro spins opposite direction of an engine crank....So if you want to do the same, you'll need a reverser or to decide how you'll mount your drivetrain....I have a band mill that I haven't even started this year while the bellsaw has been working overtime

I work alone for the most part and always have so that's the reason for the interest in mostly the Belsaw, and I can run it wit a pto off the tractor in till I can come up with an engine and pto setup, I have a pretty good old scrap yard not too far from me that has a good selection of old pulleys, Jack shafts, flat belt stuff etc. so reversing drive direction would just take a little engineering, I think my biggest obstacle is going to be actually finding a mill, I talked to a couple of the older heads around town who know who has what and where locally and they didn't know of any other than a couple that had went for scrap a few years ago when the iron prices got so high across the scales, I may have to broaden my search and take a road trip.

[jimparamedic]

I found my last mill om facebook it was in good shape no power but i only paid $250 for it and had to drive about 2 hrs to get it. hope you find one

[jemmy]

Payed 3500$ for mine, (two blades, Detroit diesel for power, and 18ft guaranteed capabilities) found it on craigslist after consistently looking for months, 2 hour drive, 2 days of grueling work to get it home, and two years off and on effort. But once its finished I know I will be happy. Saws are out there, just gotta get lucky I guess, or look on multiple websites and be willing to travel.