Curley cherry

tmbrcruiser · February 23, 2018, 07:03:13 AM

How should I saw curley cherry, flat saw or quarter saw?

WDH · February 23, 2018, 07:13:32 AM

Unless the logs are very large, you will get more yield flatsawing it. I do not get requests for quartersawn cherry, so I go for maximum board yield in something that valuable.

YellowHammer · February 23, 2018, 07:38:02 AM

I will open the faces heavy to get at least a 90% heartwood face or the boards will pull and potato chip. I prefer to flat saw it also. Jacket saw and circle the pith with lots of rotations to stay out of it.

PA_Walnut · February 23, 2018, 07:41:20 AM

Sometimes, you will get more figure quartersawing, but as the others mentioned, I'd opt for wider flat sawn boards first.

In an ideal world, many would like quarter sawn for rails and stiles and curly wide flat sawn for panels, etc.

As Yellow said, watch the sap.

Resonator · February 23, 2018, 09:49:39 AM

I cut my Black Cherry flat sawn, quarter sawn requires big enough logs to yield decent width boards, narrow boards are less desirable.

tmbrcruiser · February 24, 2018, 07:13:18 AM

The logs are over twenty inches but, I will flat saw and watch out for the sap wood. Sounds like very good advice, thank you!

YellowHammer · February 24, 2018, 08:19:30 AM

I did this 42" cherry a couple weeks ago. Since it was big, I gun barreled the sapwood off, just like I was quarter sawing it, to get it easier to fit on the mill. Sapwood on cherry is firewood, so I peel the logs like peeling a carrot. If a board has sapwood it will pull, unless its only on the edges and balanced. Unbalanced faces will bow every time. Spend extra effort to go for quality, dodging knots and defects.

Here's the log on the mill with me peeling it down to the heartwood

Not every board can be sapwood edge free, so the smaller left board on the pallet is the max I would leave, but its balanced edge to edge and will dry under stress but I can clean it up later. This was the only board on the log I had with sapwood, just because once I get into the log, I'm out of the sapwood. The bigger board is the next off the mill and the gold I'm looking for, about 23 inches wide, zero sapwood, all side wood, flat as a pancake, no knots and will dry that way. After drying and edging, a $100 board. Its showing some moderate curl.

Heres the yield from that log, all clean very wide boards. Several 2 boards per layer on the pallet, so over 20 inches wide of heartwood per board worth about $90 each. With boards of this value, its important to cut them correctly to get the full value after they have dried, and not have them dry into Pringles.

YellowHammer · February 24, 2018, 08:26:56 AM

I forgot to mention that I placed the big knot on the lower 45° position of the log, so it will disappear as I take boards off and will not strike any faces. I will time the sawing so it will only show up on board edges to be removed easily after drying.

PA_Walnut · February 24, 2018, 08:30:29 AM

Yellow...wood porn, for sure!

Hey, I'm curious how there's ZERO sawdust at your mill!

Southside · February 24, 2018, 08:36:49 AM

YH - you have some nice cherry there for sure. I don't know what it is about cherry here but, it looks nothing like what you have there, ours is always twisted, small, swept, full of knots, no straight grain at all. Pretty for sure, but not like what you have there.

Resonator · February 24, 2018, 09:01:08 AM

Flat sawn Black cherry. A lot of the trees I have aren't big enough to quarter saw, this was one that was both big and straight. When I fell them I dig the snow out around the trunk and cut as low as possible. Even if they are big, I have to watch out for ring shake and decayed center.
Quote YH :"Softwood on Cherry is firewood, so peel the logs like peeling a carrot." Thanks, I learned something new today! I'll cut thicker edge slabs for firewood!

qbilder · February 24, 2018, 01:53:50 PM

I'm sure I fall into the minority, but I prefer quarter sawing even it means narrower boards. Most curl figure shows up best on edge grain, so quarter sawing generally exposes the most figure. Quarter sawing also results in much more stable lumber. It won't curl up like flat sawn. If it moves at all, it does so lengthwise, which can be straight edged once dried. And with cherry specifically, quarter sawing reveals an interesting fleck pattern that looks sparkly. It's tough to beat a board that's both boldly curled and shimmers, albeit a small board.

All that said, take my thoughts with a grain of rice. I'm the end user for the wood I saw, so I cut it according to my own taste & purpose. IMO, there's plenty of big cherry that'll make fine, wide boards. When I come across the rare figured one, I want to show it off in all its glory, not maximize yield. For me it's quality over quantity. If I were selling lumber, perhaps I'd be more interested in yield. Coincidentally, the reason I have a saw mill in the first place is because wood I needed was never available. Lumber is always cut for max yield rather than max aesthetic, so anytime I was lucky enough to find figured lumber, it was cut wrong. It would be marketed as figured & accordingly upcharged, but it was usually ruined because it wasn't quarter sawn. The edge of the board would show intense figure. The faces would show light. I needed the faces to show the figure, even if it meant half as wide boards. I know this perspective isn't mainstream, but it is a shared sentiment between myself & other fine woodworkers. It's the old saying, "in order to get it done right, you gotta do it yourself". Just another perspective to chew on

YellowHammer · February 24, 2018, 10:53:05 PM

Everybody has their own preference and here is my personal and customer experience specifically with cherry.

Empirical data shows my customers won't pay extra for quarter sawn cherry, nor are they particularly interested in it. We do QS a signifciant amount of white and red oak, as well as sycamore, and customers pay extra for it. Not so with QS cherry.

I have more than once seen customers push QS cherry boards out of the way on the rack to get flatsawn, not that it is less attractive, it's just that they just don't necessarily prefer it. Its a personal preference. We have professional and amateur woodworkers come very long distances, sometimes from across the country, (they fly in, rent a UHaul, load up and head back home) and if they wanted it, they would not hesitate to ask for it, and I would not hesitate to produce it.

What do our customers prefer in cherry? Very wide, very flat, flatsawn.

Same thing with curly cherry, they want very wide, very flat with the curl pattern in the center on the board, not the edges.

I know many people think buying wide boards is a sign of a novice woodworker, but in cherry, since its very difficult to get wide and dead flat, that in itself is rare and that is what they want, so that is what we produce. Although some of our customers are amateurs, some are professionals of the highest caliber.

I may have simplified the technique for this post, but there is a big difference between cheese slicing flat sawing which will curl even narrow cherry boards, and flat sawing for highest quality, which not only includes visible defects, but also maximize stability and flatness. Flat sawn cherry in the manner I describe will not curl, it will remain very flat, that is the whole point of this technique. We sold three cherry boards today that were 17 inch plus wide, completely clear, and the customer remarked he had never seen boards so wid, flat and clean in his life. To me, this is the highest value wood, boards that will make the customers jaw drop.

Also, when using this technique, curly figure is maximized in the middle of the board, instead of the edges, as shown in the picture of even a moderately curly log.

Again, to each his own.

Tom the Sawyer · February 24, 2018, 11:24:07 PM

Quote from: qbilder on February 24, 2018, 01:53:50 PMLumber is always cut for max yield rather than max aesthetic, so anytime I was lucky enough to find figured lumber, it was cut wrong.

qbilder,
Although there are certainly sawyers on here who produce for the commodity lumber market, I don't think that I am the only one who mills for character, and when I get beautifully figured lumber, it isn't because I screwed up. ;D

123maxbars · February 24, 2018, 11:25:57 PM

Yellowhammer,

Good looking cherry logs, and thanks for the education on them, much appreciated,

Ianab · February 25, 2018, 01:42:36 AM

Quote from: PA_Walnut on February 24, 2018, 08:30:29 AMHey, I'm curious how there's ZERO sawdust at your mill!

I think that if you look at the picture from the end of the mill, there is a dust extractor pipe on the left. There will be a big pile of sawdust someplace, but probably in a bin out the back for easy disposal?

dbroswoods · February 25, 2018, 07:33:18 AM

Quote from: YellowHammer on February 24, 2018, 10:53:05 PM

I may have simplified the technique for this post, but there is a big difference between cheese slicing flat sawing which will curl even narrow cherry boards, and flat sawing for highest quality, which not only includes visible defects, but also maximize stability and flatness. Flat sawn cherry in the manner I describe will not curl, it will remain very flat, that is the whole point of this technique. We sold three cherry boards today that were 17 inch plus wide, completely clear, and the customer remarked he had never seen boards so wid, flat and clean in his life. To me, this is the highest value wood, boards that will make the customers jaw drop.

Also, when using this technique, curly figure is maximized in the middle of the board, instead of the edges, as shown in the picture of even a moderately curly log.

Again, to each his own.

YellowHammer: Would you please explain how this is done. I'm fairly new to milling and I don't quite understand what you mean how you saw this in this fashion to get it to stay flat.
Thanks Mark

YellowHammer · February 25, 2018, 08:28:51 AM

We have a Timberking blower sucking up as much sawdust as possible and blowing it into a self dumping hopper outside. The blower gets the majority of the debris but not all. So we also clean up under the mill periodically because we give a lot of customer tours and we try to make the place look nice.

dbroswoods, here is a thread on the subject.

Is it a Drying or Sawing Dilemma in Drying and Processing

tmbrcruiser · February 25, 2018, 10:39:11 AM

Thank you to everyone for the help. The forum has saved my wallet several times. :P

qbilder · February 25, 2018, 11:44:33 AM

Quote from: YellowHammer on February 24, 2018, 10:53:05 PM
What do our customers prefer in cherry? Very wide, very flat, flatsawn.

Same thing with curly cherry, they want very wide, very flat with the curl pattern in the center on the board, not the edges.

Honest question. Have you ever quarter sawed a curly cherry log? That's a question for anybody, really. I find it extremely difficult to believe that any woodworker of any caliber would side step true quarter sawed curly cherry. It screams at you, refuses to be ignored. Quarter sawing shows curl as boldly as it can be shown and across the entire face of the board. A woodworker pushing it aside to go for the wide board apparently didn't have his wife with him.

Now quarter sawed cherry that isn't curly and doesn't show a lot of speck is ugly, unimpressive. It's logical for somebody to push it aside for the wider board. Generally those boards are the byproduct of milling a log for wide, flat cut boards, and IMO are worth what any byproduct is worth. There's a huge difference between those boards and true quarter sawed curly boards cut specifically to show off the figure. It's unfair to conflate the two. Speaking of fairness, it should also be clarified that curl and quilt are totally different figures that get bunched together. Quilt actually shows best on flat sawed boards, and in my experience quilt is more common in cherry than true curl. It's quite possible we are seeing two different sides of the same coin.

YellowHammer · February 25, 2018, 12:57:38 PM

To answer a few questions at once.
Yes, I have quartersawn a cherry log, maybe even more than one. :D
Yes, I believe I know how to "correctly" quartersaw. :D

The next time I have a customer request QS cherry, I will send them your way.
Have a nice day.

dbroswoods · February 25, 2018, 02:57:09 PM

Thanks YellowHammer that was a good read and will be using this method.

Mark

POSTON WIDEHEAD · February 25, 2018, 06:03:38 PM

Quote from: YellowHammer on February 25, 2018, 12:57:38 PM
To answer a few questions at once.
Yes, I have quartersawn a cherry log, maybe even more than one. :D
Yes, I believe I know how to "correctly" quartersaw. :D

The next time I have a customer request QS cherry, I will send them your way.
Have a nice day.

Instead of answering each question, put about 5 or 6 quotes on top of each other. :D

qbilder · February 25, 2018, 06:33:45 PM

Quote from: YellowHammer on February 25, 2018, 12:57:38 PM
To answer a few questions at once.
Yes, I have quartersawn a cherry log, maybe even more than one. :D
Yes, I believe I know how to "correctly" quartersaw. :D

The next time I have a customer request QS cherry, I will send them your way.
Have a nice day.

While I can appreciate your defensive condescension, which is unwarranted & misplaced, you completely missed the mark. I didn't ask if you have quartered cherry. I asked specifically about CURLY cherry. Nothing I said or asked was intended to offend you. It was all about having a discussion where points of view differ, and I was attempting to bridge that gap. I do apologize if I said something to offend you. It was most certainly not my intention.

PA_Walnut · March 14, 2018, 07:18:53 AM

Quartersawing figured logs SOMETIMES exhibits more figure, but not always.
When I saw ANY figured material, it's always the dance of width or quarter sawing...brain cramping.

If it's instrument grade, who other discussion. It MUST be quarter sawn to make the grade.
Those logs are few and far between. Had a maple one last week though.
8)