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Intro & Storm Damaged Tree

Started by DaltonH-WV, December 11, 2018, 12:02:30 PM

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DaltonH-WV

First post but have been browsing for almost a year. Just this year purchased a late 1970's log kit home that needs a little tlc. Prior to that I purchased ~38 acres behind it that has not seen much use in the past 100 years at least. Was told one ridge top was once upon a time an apple orchard.  No visible trails or such so working on that right now to be able to access with atv.

Love the outdoors, but first time actually owning in the outdoors. Lots of help in these forums and probably one of the best forums I've ever read. 

Question on picture below. Tree blew over sometime this past fall. Are there any concerns with cutting it as it is? Will there be tension low on the trunk from it being cracked/blown over? Relatively novice with a chainsaw but watch plenty of youtube/informative videos and risk-averse by nature. 

I am just wanting to clean up some fallen trees at this time. Most I'm guessing will turn into firewood but some others could possibly be salvaged for more.



 




 


Hopefully this is okay!

Thanks!
Dalton

Southside

Hi Dalton and welcome to the Forum. From the pictures I am guessing the tree was dead before it broke off. So you have a side hill, two hangers, and a compromised trunk. Yes, there will be issues getting that onto the ground.

Safest answer. Find someone with hand felling experience and pay them, trade with them, or otherwise befriend them to get that on the ground for you. Then you can handle it from there. 

A good rule of thumb when feeling is if you are not sure, don't do it. Nothing wrong with asking for help on a tree like that, it's actually the respectable thing to do. 
Franklin buncher and skidder
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Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
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Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
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White Oak Meadows

Hooterspfld

I'm not a professional so take all my advice with a grain of salt. I have taken down many trees myself and each one is a learning experience. No matter what, if you have trepidation making a cut it's better not to do it.  

If it were me, my first step would be to clean up the surrounding area. Clear brush broken limbs etc... Then I would look at the broken portion of the tree and start at the the farthest portion of the tree. (was the top of the tree) I'd thin out any of the branches that aren't touching the ground. These branches have only one force acting on them, gravity, and therefor will have compression action on cuts on the underside and expansion on the top of the branch. Cut these up in small pieces and clear your area often! This way even if you don't end up cutting the whole tree up, you've at least readied the area for an experienced loger, which should at least help lower the cost.

If you get all that done and still want to give it a go, I'd be tempted to try and pull the remaining leaning branches free from the trunk. Attach a cable to the ATV and throw in snatch block on a tree to increase your pulling force. Give it a few yanks and see if you can get it on the ground where you can safely buck it.  

Just my thoughts of what I'd do if facing the same tree.

Good luck and be safe!

John Mc

Quote from: Southside logger on December 11, 2018, 12:23:20 PM
Hi Dalton and welcome to the Forum. From the pictures I am guessing the tree was dead before it broke off. So you have a side hill, two hangers, and a compromised trunk. Yes, there will be issues getting that onto the ground.

Safest answer. Find someone with hand felling experience and pay them, trade with them, or otherwise befriend them to get that on the ground for you. Then you can handle it from there.

A good rule of thumb when feeling is if you are not sure, don't do it. Nothing wrong with asking for help on a tree like that, it's actually the respectable thing to do.
Well put. The most important thing to know about felling trees is your own limitations. Knowing when to walk away is critical. You might be OK with the technique Hooterspfld describes, you might not. It's hard for anyone to say from just a couple of pictures. You'll need to judge how much of that sort of thing you are comfortable with.
If you do have a friend you can ask for help, use it as a learning opportunity. You just might learn some new techniques and expand your options for future such problems.

BTW, welcome to the Forestry Forum!
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

Grandpa

I would not touch that until those two hangers are pulled down.
About 100 miles from here there is a guy in a wheelchair from cutting a wind damaged tree about like that. He was cutting it down when the top broke free and landed on him breaking his back. At least that is what I was told.

mike_belben

Using picture one as our vantage point..  cut a standard notch on the right hand side of the trunk, and a backcut from the left hand side.  Toss a rope over the elbow and tug it over to the right down the hill.  I dont expect it to be very eventful but have some kinda helmet on and keep a close watch for things that wanna lunge at or ontop of you. 
Praise The Lord

samandothers

Welcome! Can't offer advice on the tree.

dsroten

Quote from: mike_belben on December 11, 2018, 07:34:39 PM
Using picture one as our vantage point..  cut a standard notch on the right hand side of the trunk, and a 9backcut from the left hand side.  Toss a rope over the elbow and tug it over to the right down the hill.  I dont expect it to be very eventful but have some kinda helmet on and keep a close watch for things that wanna lunge at or ontop of you.
This is the answer you seek.  Fall it sideways, whichever way its leaning or wanting to go.  Might be able to make the face cut then yank it over.  Leave a healthy hinge at least.  This increases the safety factor a bit.  

DaltonH-WV

Thank you all for input! 

I just moved to the area before purchasing this land and house, happened fast, so I am still searching for knowledgable people in the area.

I don't know if it is one I'll tackle first but it definitely looks the most daunting of the damaged trees so was looking for some knowledge. It also is on a small knoll that I'd like to open up.

Here are a couple other blown over trees which most either snapped at lower level or uprooted. The leaner that got held up high ended up taking that tree over with it about a week later (first two pictures). The two red oaks (I believe) fell deep in the ravine. 



 

 





 

 

mike_belben

That first one looks like money to me. Got any equipment to drag it out?
Praise The Lord

DaltonH-WV

Mike,

FIL has 75 acres next door and he owns a Case 550G dozer. I've never operated one before and don't have a clue what it can handle but that would be the only thing that my guess would work. I may be purchasing an utv but that doesn't have tow capacity for that I'm sure. Wouldn't mind getting some $ back out of some wood.

Would you cut it prior to specific lengths before pulling it out or leave it full length? What would I do after pulling it out? Wish I had a mill to use as I've done some work on one with grandfather in NY.


dsroten

It depends.  If you have to make tight turns in the woods then dragging it out one piece at a time might be better, or if you're trying to avoid skinning up a bunch of good trees on the way out. If its a long ways back in there, or if you have a pretty straight line shot to pull then drag whole stem out at once.\

Most mills in NC want even lengths from 8 to 16 ft with a 4 inch trim.  So your logs would be 10'4" for example.  Clear butt logs are more valuable, so get as many logs out of that trunk as you can that dont have any knots on them without wasting too much wood.  Put em on a trailer or truck and off to the mill you go.


florida

I'd hook a cable on the broken part and pull it away from the trunk.  I wouldn't get near it with a saw until then.
General contractor and carpenter for 50 years.
Retired now!

mike_belben

If you have the means to haul it to a mill and there is one or more in range, call them up and ask "are you buying [whatever species those are] sawlogs right now?  Yes.. Okay, what lengths do you want them bucked to and how much trim? Down to how small? Inside bark or outside? Is that doyle scale or international? And whats the longest log you'll take? [Be ready to write this down, theyll rattle it off fast, just say okay.  Dont ask noob questions to let them know youre ripe for being taken advantage of.. Ask us what you dont know after and we will walk you through.  And dont say theyre blowdowns, never give anyone an excuse on the phone to downgrade your logs, many will take you up on it!]

Finally ask what hours and days for the scaler, if they pay on the spot or mail a check, and if they need you to fill out a 1099 form. If so you gotta claim it as income next year or risk triggering an audit.  As a beginner, dont even worry about what each mill will pay, youll just waste time.  If you run into an independant logger theyll tell you the truth but on paper every mill pays great.  You gotta haul in about 3 loads each to find out for sure so dont get caught up in numbers.  For one load, just go where it costs you the least time and money. 

The 550 will pull them out but if its tight turns youll probably want to halve the long one and drag two pieces.  You may have to chain it off the blade and back out, i do this all the time and it keeps things much cleaner and is nimbler than flat dragging off the drawbar.

 Sawlogs are easiest to sell in 10'6 and 12'6.  That is a final trim, its just fine to cut them to 11 and 13 or to cut the tree in half where itll give you say 24 and 26 or something like that. Then you can wittle down As a beginner its always smart to leave some wiggle and the mill will not fault you for bringing in 9" or trim.  Its when they want 6 and you bring 4.  Well theyre happy to pay you for 10ft of that 12ft log because youre an inch shy.  If a log is really straight and clean without big taper or knots and you are able, leave it long is possible is usually best.  This commands the most money as the mill can buck it for any length they are short on. A long perfect log you can haggle over.  16" small end inside bark, free of knots, limbs, peck holes or creases with both ends clean and free of rot, circle cracks (shake) or insect holes is haggling wood. Over 16 puts it into a top diameter class usually called prime or even veneer and yo uwant to be sure youre getting paid their higher rates on the chart.  There is nothing wrong with keeping the scaler on his toes.  If you dont it will cost ya.  When i get marked down from what i expect i ask why.  Be pleasant, but the less you give away your noobness the less they rip you off.  When you get there if it isnt obvious what to do just walk in say i got a load of sawlogs, where do you want me to park?  You park there, unstrap and just wait.  Someone will come out and unload.  Soon as they do toss your straps back on and be ready to move.  Its like a scrap yard. The logs will get laid out and measured.  Thats the scaler, he can be your friend or enemy so treat him good.  When hes done you go in the office and see how you did.  If the scaler is willing to teach you anything, stick with that mill and learn all you can from him. Thats the fastest way to get good money from your woods. Produce the EXACT product they are hungry for when they are hungry for them. And im seriously saying make that guy your buddy if at all possible, like hang on lemme call bill and ask how i should buck this for him. It has worked exceptionally well for me.  
Praise The Lord

DaltonH-WV

Awesome info Mike! Thank you so much. I have some questions but I'll wait till I get closer to that time.

Hauling to a mill will be the problem, I drive a Mini :). But I'll see what happens by the time I can get a trail and equipment back there. I also don't know where the local (nearby) mills are located. I've heard it is over hour away to couple. I think one is a WO stave mill.

How long will intact tree like that last on forest floor? I also have a walnut that was uprooted I haven't been able to look at carefully yet.  

I appreciate all the advice so far. New to this side of the outdoors but it is very exciting no matter what happens.

mike_belben

You can make a good living in proximity to a white oak stave mill.  Thats the best paying money youre gonna get in white oak and actually have the trees that make the grade.  Right now stave outpays veneer even though its harder for a log to make veneer grade.  A stave log can have a defect on one side and veneer cannot so why even sort a 4 side clear [veneer spec] log out of the stave pile?

Nativewolf is the guy who can sell the nuts off a walnut.

Hauling em with a mini goes in the daily carnage thread.

A former neighbor of mine is running semi loads of pulp an hour away for $100/load. If it was stave the load would be worth a few grand so the money isnt an issue if you can get it logged and loaded. 

Welcome aboard.

Praise The Lord

David-L

Welcome, without a lot of chainsaw experience I would not touch any widow makers or the storm damaged trees with tension on them. I operate a saw everyday professionally and still cringe when I have to deal with trees like that. there doable but you have to dig into the bag of tricks sometimes. I would find a reputable local logger and see what he says and report back. Wish I was closer to help but its wintertime and the Motorcycle is asleep. Good luck, and be safe.
In two days from now, tomorrow will be yesterday.

David-L

Quote from: David-L on December 15, 2018, 06:35:38 AM
Welcome, without a lot of chainsaw experience I would not touch any widow makers or the storm damaged trees with tension on them. I operate a saw everyday professionally and still cringe when I have to deal with trees like that. there doable but you have to dig into the bag of tricks sometimes. I would find a reputable local logger and see what he says and report back. Wish I was closer to help but its wintertime and the Motorcycle is asleep. Good luck, and be safe.
Oh, the logger should be insured and comply to your states regs, just a thought. Professionalism can say alot.
In two days from now, tomorrow will be yesterday.

WV Sawmiller

Dalton,

   Welcome to the FF and WV. I assume you are not native to here because you said something about the Red Oak falling into the "Ravine" instead of the "holler". Either that or you are just talking citified to impress the rest of us.:D :D

    Where are you located? If you're close to Hinton or passing through this way stop by and see us. Bring your rubber boots because last week's heavy snow is melting and its one muddy mess around here right now.

    Be real careful if you do decide to cut those hangers shown in the first picture. Every time I cut a tree on one of our steep side hills I am scared. When I'm not scared any more I'm gonna quit! And that is cutting a normal tree not one that already looks like it wants to kill me.

   Happy holidays and stay safe.
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2011 4WD F150 Ford Lariat PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Stihl 440 Chainsaw, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

DaltonH-WV

Haha I'm still getting used to the word "holler".. Home is central NC but I've grown up in a few states from father being military. 

I am just south of Huntington, WV. I came to school at Marshall U a while back and just relocated to the area a little over year ago. 

The hills are daunting here that is for sure. Many times I've decided to slide down the hill on purpose than walk in misery..  :D

If I'm down that way I'll see if you aren't busy!


WV Sawmiller

Dalton,

   Yeah the hills can kick your butt. Its to the point I check to see which side of the slope (There is always a slope) a deer will fall on to determine whether its worth the effort to shoot him.

   We moved here from Jacksonville NC when I got out of USMC there and took a job overseas. My kids were military brats till middle school. My wife took a job here as the local HS Band director and came and bought the place while I was working for the Saudi Navy and I came home on R&R and moved them in. Had never been in the state till then. She used to have a real good working relationship with the folks there in the Marshal music program and took her band up for honors programs and such. They actively recruited her students for the band program there and they typically had the top spots. We had a German exchange student who returned and went there on a scholarship. 

    We'll keep the light on and the grits warm for when you get down.
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2011 4WD F150 Ford Lariat PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Stihl 440 Chainsaw, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

DaltonH-WV

Finally got back out during the holiday season to check out the one I posted and others in the cluster that fell. I'll attach some photos, but kind of just have general questions. It looks like it was a chain reaction fall that took out about 5 all together.

* The long straight one goes from around 54" (circumference) butt to 38" about foot from first fork at 43'.
   Two other trees approximately same size or slightly bigger (up to 60") but shorter to first fork.
   One tree 80" circumference but only 10 to 12' sawlog I think.

How long will they be okay on forest floor? If I bucked, should I seal with some type of protective feature (I've read a few things about that on here). If you buck, how long before you should get to mill? *I'm in no place to do this right now but maybe late spring or summer. Just trying to learn in advance to doing something stupid.. :)

Not what I want but if no real chance to get out for sawlogs would it be reasonable to process firewood? I will be burning wood personally in cabin plus could have extra for sale.

Thanks for all the help as I'm new to this!



 


 


 


 


 

mike_belben

If you buck it the ends start drying then mushrooms begin at edges and grade will go down faster.  The mill wants logs as fresh as possible or it becomes an excuse to pay less.  

If you cant get them out to sell them, but think youll ever want to make alaskan milled lumber, now is the time.  That situation is exactly what chainsaw milling is perfect for.  Nice big tree you cant get out.  Theyre not hard to build if youre so inclined but youll want a 70cc+ pro saw. There will be good lumber hiding inside a punky tree for a good 2-3 years easily.  A windy slope wont rot too fast. But the mill wants em before the sapwood goes gray 
Praise The Lord

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