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Value of Elm

Started by Topper, August 04, 2006, 01:28:44 AM

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Topper

Hi, I am new here, I often hangout  at the chainsaw forum at AS.  I have some property that has a heavily wooded river running through it.  I am waiting on the state forestry agency to work with me to develop a management plan.  I have a lot of American Elm that I assumed was only good for firewood, but I have noticed that it is often listed as a marketable timber.  What is it used for and what is it's aproximate value?  I am in South Central Kansas.

Also when I have found prices for other timber they typically list Stumpage and FOB mill.  When we allowed someone else to harvest timber on another peice of property, the cut the logs and stacked them at the edge of the field.  A truck (I assume from the mill) came and graded the lumber, wrote a check to the cutter and a check to us and took the logs and left.  Is this a common arrangement?  Where do I find mills that work this way, or am I wrong to assume that this is a mill, perhaps a middleman? 

Thanks for the input.

Ron Wenrich

I can't comment on the elm, since it really isn't much we run into here in the East.

However, there are several ways of selling timber.  Many people will opt for the lump sum sale.  That is where a forester marks your timber, comes up with a volume, and puts it up for sale.  Timber is sold to the highest bidder and is paid for before removal.  The landowner has no risk in the outcome of how the logs are sold or their value. 

One method that is really common for loggers is to buy on shares.  That means that the logger pays the landowner a certain percentage of all the logs that he takes out.  The advantage for the logger is there is no up front money, and there is less risk if his value judgements are off. 

For the landowner, there is a much higher risk.  Not only do you have worry about the quality of the timber, but you also have to rely on the logger's marketing and bucking skills.  If the logger can't market the timber, then what?  If he doesn't buck the logs for the optimum dollar, then what?  All of the logger's risks get shoved back to the stump, ie the landowner.

The other problem is that of sale administration.  In the lump sum method, you don't have to watch every truck that comes out of the woods, since its all paid for.  You do have to walk through the woods and make sure unmarked trees aren't being cut.  A good forester will do that for you.

In the shares method, you have to rely on both the mill's and logger's honesty.  They do this for a living, you do not.  How good is the mill's scaler?  Is mill A better than mill B?  Did the logger take a load somewhere that wasn't paid for?  These types of jobs take either a lot of sale administration or a lot of trust. 

The very least you should do is have more than one company look at your woodlot.  If you want to administer a sale on your own, the least you should do is have a competent forester mark and tally your woodlot. 
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

SwampDonkey

I can't give a value on the elm, but I have had elm panelling in th eliving room for 30 years. Most of what I've seen is left standing or pulped. We don't even use it for firewood in my area. In fact, I don't know of anyone who would buy it for that purpose. Some towns and provinces don't want it transported because of the beetles and dutch elm disease they carry.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

metalspinner

If they are American Elm and they are healthy,  they may be more valuable to all of us if they are left alone.  These could be resistent to the disease and be used for research and such. 
Just my .02 from an uneducated tree lover. ;D
I do what the little voices in my wife's head tell me to do.

TeaW

Topper , elm is not in demand around here and it really never was . We used to have alot of it 30 years ago but it has mostly been lost to the dutch elm D. There are still alot of elm but they only get to 6-8 inches and they die . There are also a good number of big old trees that are away from other trees and have survived so far.It is a tough stringy wood , with a high moisture content .For firewood it is hard to split and heavy when cut but light when dry, for lumber it likes to twisst and cup if not dried right.
I have a 40 by 50 barn that was built of american elm (white elm) it is over a 100 years old .The sideing is in fair shape after all that time. If I have to drive a  nail ,you have to drill a hole first ( they used what they had to work with) . All elm is not the same Rock elm has far better qualities than Americn (white ) and Red (Slippery elm ) is different still. They where all used in the basket factory and the dump truck guy's really liked elm for side boards on thier trucks and trailers
TeaW
TeaW

urbanlumberinc

If you have some large, unique pieces they may be of some value to the freeform and slab furniture crowd.  I cut slabs all the time from american, english and siberian elm.  You'll often find some neat grain in big old american elms.

Modat22

Elm sure makes pretty tables. ;D
remember man that thy are dust.

Larry

Welcome Topper...trees in Kansas? :D :D :D

The only market I've found for elm is pallets and specialty wood workers.  Sometimes the crotch figure is quite interesting.  Hubs for wheels on wagons heading west is a good use...but haven't seen any wagon trains in quite a while now. ;D

Couple local boys that might be able to help would be Dave Bruton, utilization and marketing forester for Kansas.  He keeps up on all that stuff and is a good guy to know.  Reach him at (785) 945-6147.  Member kansas has a mill out in your direction and is also President of Kansas Forest Products Association.  He might be interested in elm or know somebody else that wants some.  Send him an IM and wake em up.
Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

junkyard

Add to the other uses. Horse stall planks and years back they were peeled for veneer to make cheese boxes, the round ones elm bends real easy. As noted before it likes to move while drying.
                Junkyard
If it's free, It's for me. If for pay, leave it lay.

Michigan Mike

I have a friend who is rebuilding a medium size bucket crane. He is going to use it to dig a pond down at the bottom of his property in a swampy area. He wants me to  mill elm for flotation pads for the crane once he gets down into the swamp. He claims that the crane operators in this area belive that elm is the best wood for this purpose. It suposedly holds up well to the wet conditions.

Roller

Elm makes pretty poor firewood leave um up.. :)
Rock 'on' Tommy

beenthere

There are a few species of hardwoods I don't bother with for firewood, such as aspen, basswood, boxelder. The latter are pretty light-weight and takes a lot of volume to get enough BTU's to make the effort worthwhile.
However, elm isn't one of those I avoid, as elm is intermediate in heat value per volume when dry. Not in the same high heat category as hard maple, oak and hickory, but is similar to white birch, beech, and soft maple. I, and others I know, like elm for fires. It has some different burning characteristics and a good friend prefers it to many 'better' woods.  :)

Elm makes for good looking furniture wood, and was also used for years to make Church pews. Very interesting grain pattern, and may or may not be worth the bother to do the extra effort to dry it flat and prepare it for woodworking. One can do a lot worse for wood to make furniture, than elm.

Roller
What elm species is found in England ???  What's it's specific gravity?
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Timburr

Beenthere, I'll answer on behalf of Roller. The 2 main species of elm are English elm (Ulmus procera) and wych elm (U. glabra). Their specific gravities respectively are 0.56 and 0.69.

I'm with Roller on it's firewood quality, although the heartwood of wych elm is reasonable when seasoned for 3 or 4 year. What firewood merchant wants to stock it for that long?

Wych elm (the one I'm refering to :D :D) is more forgiving with it's drying and working qualities and I'd be proud to use it for furniture.

About 2 miles from us grows the 11th largest wych elm in the U.K. This magnificant tree has escaped the ravages of Dutch elm disease and boasts a dbh of 50"+. The land-owner has been made to put a 'cage' around it, to stop her horses chewing the bark.
Sense is not common

Max sawdust

Beenthere,
Must be a "Wisconsin thing" :D  Our Elm may be hard to split but can make "better than average" firewood, and good character wood for furniture and the like.  Still the commercial value is low :-[

Topper,
What is the diameter of the logs you want to harvest?  If you have living elm over 20" they may be more valuable to leave standing.  If nothing else I suggest finding a market first, cause elm is not a highly valued wood, and the trees may be of more value for ascetics than for the dollars for pulp.

max
True Timbers
Cedar Products-Log & Timber Frame Building-Milling-Positive Impact Forestscaping-Cut to Order Lumber

Topper

The size of the trees varies, some are well  over 20".  My plan is to thin the elm to plant black walnut.  The trees are along a river and the asthetics are not an issue.  I have some existing walnuts that the elm canopy is covering.  I am waiting on the state forest service to survey the property and help me develop a plan.  My thought is that if I am going to take down or atleast kill some of the elm, I might as well sell them if I can.  I have a large fireplace and use elm all the time for firewood.  I load it up and it burns well.  It puts out enough heat that if I keep it loaded up even with elm, it will drive you out of the room.  I appreciate all of the input.

SwampDonkey

I couldn't give it away for firewood. I'de be run out of town. :D I'de like to have some boards though, I had a log sent to a band mill once, never did get my lumber.  ::)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Modat22

I love burning elm in the fireplace, it seems to make one really long burning hot fire. I heated my house with elm last year with my propane furnace as backup. I only used 25 gallons of propane in my 1500 sq foot house.
remember man that thy are dust.

SPIKER

While looking through for info on elm myself I've found most of what stated above to be true, (actuall uses that is)  furnature, flooring barns & just about what ever that requires some rot resistance and wet conditions.   Slippery Elm was once used exclusivly inside barn floors where critter wastes would get on it.  :o (one reason it got named SLIPPERY I'm sure  lol  8))   anyhow still living 20+ incher is a good sized one forsure.  last years ice storms finished off the livving onse inmy woods and the reason I was looking for the slippery elm uses.  the american elms all died years ago some are still standing and most have lost the bark years back.   I'm down to ONE BIG slippery elm standing in the middle of the woods and it shows signs of surcumbing soon. :(  (it is almost the biggest tree in the woods, only beat out by a few of the american beach trees there which are in the 36~40" range.

Mark M
I'm looking for help all the shrinks have given up on me :o

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