Logs from Pin Oaks with Bacterial Leaf Scorch

[climbncut]

I work for a tree service that is hired by the state, city and numerous private homeowners to remove and prune trees. It seems that over half of our removals are pin oaks (Quercus palustris) that are dying from bacterial leaf scorch.  Most trees are anywhere from 20-50 inches DBH with solid logs. There is usually 25-75% green foliage left in the canopy when removed.  I have been saving the logs and just started milling this past weekend.  My question is, will the bacterial leaf scorch affect the quality of the log, even if its solid? Also, what quality of lumber are you guys getting from pin oak and would you recommend it for framing a house?

[DRB]

As long as the trees are still alive when you cut them down I would expect no degrade to the log.  Pin oak is usually considered low quality because of the knots but the wood is pretty and much under rated in my opinion. It is much browner then most other "red oaks" and has nice character. It would make fine beams for framing a house as long as the log is sound and free of shakes.  I would expect urban pin oaks to be pruned fairly well so somewhat free of dead knots at least. It stinks when you cut it but I am sure you have experienced that.

[climbncut]

I have noticed there isn't as deep of a red color as in northern, shumard or scarlet oaks, which makes me assume pin oak isn't worth as much. For some reason, and I will never understand why, but pin oaks are more commonly planted in urban environments than any other oak in my area. They do have a high survival rate when transplanted and are normally cheaper than other oaks at nurseries, but they require more maintenance throughout their life than other trees. If every pin oak I removed was a true red oak or white oak I would either have a lot of high quality logs or would actually make decent money selling to mills.

[climbncut]

It doesn't smell bad when your cutting it...wait til when you get in the truck to go back to the shop. That's when you really notice it ;D

[chucker]

 :D yupp MMmmm ! right from the cow pasture...

[ohsoloco]

I've milled a few urban pin oaks in the past.  Even the ones around 30" diameter don't take long to hit knots even if the log looks clear  :-\ 

[Ron Wenrich]

I couldn't figure out why they planted either pin oak or silver maple as landscape trees.  Both of them naturally grow in wet areas.  But, someone pointed out that its the land disturbance factor.  Both have relatively shallow root systems that lend its survival to compacted soils in urban settings.

The biggest problem with pin oak in red oak lumber is that it doesn't match very well.  If you're building a line of furniture that is using a clear finish, you'll want it all to match fairly well.  If you're staining the lumber, than color isn't as critical.

I've always noticed the worse the stink, the more the shake.  Shake is normally caused by a bacteria.  Sometimes it doesn't open up until it starts to dry out.  I also notice that any red oak with mineral has a bad odor.  The mineral is also caused by bacteria, and will eventually lead to shake.

[climbncut]

I couldn't figure out why they planted either pin oak or silver maple as landscape trees.  Both of them naturally grow in wet areas.  But, someone pointed out that its the land disturbance factor.  Both have relatively shallow root systems that lend its survival to compacted soils in urban settings.

Pin oak and silver maple are the two most common trees we end up having to remove. I've never seen a silver maple growing naturally anywhere except along the Ky river. It's disturbing to me that landscape companies and nursuries encourage either one of these tree's for planting in dry, compact, and well drained upland soils that are so common in new neighborhoods. I will never grow or recommend either one to anybody. Why plant a pin oak when you could plant a scarlet, or a silver maple when you could plant a red or sugar?

[Dodgy Loner]

I've only milled one urban pin oak, but there was no smell to it at all. Also no ring shake, and I'm sure that's not a coincidence. I found the lumber to be very attractive. The heartwood had dark and light stripes in it, almost like a zebra. It definitely wasn't quite as red as say, southern red oak, but it wasn't as brown as some of the water oaks I've sawn (nor as red as some of the water oaks I've sawn, interestingly). No big knots - the tree came from the UGA campus and was well-pruned, obviously. I would definitely saw some pin oak again if I got the chance.

To answer your question, though, the bacterial leaf scorch should not affect the quality of the log. You'll want pnematic nailer if you're using red oak to frame a house, though!

Regarding the river bottom species in urban settings, Ron hit the nail on the head. The compacted urban soils are usually deficient in oxygen, so species that are equipped to deal with a low-oxygen environment, whether it is a compacted lawn or an inundated swamp, will typically do better than others. I am in total agreement that there are many better trees than pin oaks and silver maples (although there are definitely some fantastic pin oak specimens on UGA's campus), but others such as overcup oak, shumard oak, and river birch are used to great effect.

[Ron Wenrich]

Wow, a tree from UGA campus.  Penn State buries all their trees or sends them to mulch.  I'd love to saw up some of those big old elms on campus.  But, they don't want people to market their products or profit from their heritage, so they won't sell any of the campus trees. 

[DRB]

I had always assumed Pin Oak was used as a landscape tree was because they grow striaght and tall rarely forking and they grow fast.  Normally they are pruned of the dead branches that pin oak is famous for makeing the urban pin oak a better candidate for lumber then a forest grown one.  I still say the wood is pretty with a lot of character. It is not red like a true red oak and that does lower its value to many.  It normally does not prune itself at all. I have seen small dead branches all the way to the ground on a forest grown pin oak.  Rare is a crooked forked pin oak though they have good form to the bole.  The lumber is just as strong as any other red oak and makes fine beams that will normally have a lot of small knots in them. The form of the tree lends itself to beam that do not warp or twist.   I find it best to drill nail holes in any oak beam rather then trying to drive them. 

[Ron Wenrich]

Pin oak isn't native to Washington, is it?  That being the case, your forest grown come from some sort of landscape trees, in all probability.  And, you don't have the native stock that can foster all sorts of bacteria, so your trees would be a little bit different than the genetic mish mash we have here in the east. 

[Dodgy Loner]

Wow, a tree from UGA campus.  Penn State buries all their trees or sends them to mulch.  I'd love to saw up some of those big old elms on campus.  But, they don't want people to market their products or profit from their heritage, so they won't sell any of the campus trees. 

UGA's official policy is the same as Penn State's. All of their trees are supposed to go to the grinder. But the work crews who clean up the trees really don't mind if someone wants to do some work for them ;). When I asked about getting the log from the pin oak they were taking down, their reply was, well, no, we can't let you take it...but if it just disappears this afternoon, there's not much we can do about it ;D. It was the second-largest log I've sawed - 9 feet long and 36" in diameter. I had to take it to a friend of mine with an LT-40, as our little LT-15 was not quite up to the task! We took a picture of the log with the Redcoat Band practicing in the background. I'll have to save the lumber for a special project

[DRB]

Pin oak isn't native to Washington, is it?  That being the case, your forest grown come from some sort of landscape trees, in all probability.  And, you don't have the native stock that can foster all sorts of bacteria, so your trees would be a little bit different than the genetic mish mash we have here in the east. 

I come from Ohio moved to WA to get a steady job almost 30 years ago. Pin oaks all over the place in Ohio.  Have not been back to OH in 14 years when the we sold the mill.

[olyman]

UGA's official policy is the same as Penn State's. All of their trees are supposed to go to the grinder. But the work crews who clean up the trees really don't mind if someone wants to do some work for them ;). When I asked about getting the log from the pin oak they were taking down, their reply was, well, no, we can't let you take it...but if it just disappears this afternoon, there's not much we can do about it ;D. It was the second-largest log I've sawed - 9 feet long and 36" in diameter. I had to take it to a friend of mine with an LT-40, as our little LT-15 was not quite up to the task! We took a picture of the log with the Redcoat Band practicing in the background. I'll have to save the lumber for a special project
[/quote] you saying some trees in the future are projected to come up missing?????? ;D ;D ;D

[Phorester]

"UGA's official policy is the same as Penn State's. All of their trees are supposed to go to the grinder."
Sounds like a complete waste of a natural resource by people who think making money by selling trees is akin to slapping their mother.

I would think they could make money and prestige by converting dying campus trees to wooden clocks, picture frames, plaques, wooden writing pens, etc, etc. Hood ornaments?  Toilet seats?   ;D Laser engrave the pens with the college logo and the purchersers name and year of graduation.  Market them to their alumni as being from University trees. 

Here's the ad - "Imagine - a beautiful oak mantel clock made from the tree you strolled under as a student!"  "Instead of relegating it to the landfill or to mulch, your alma mater is converting them into lasting momentos of your time spent at our university.  The carbon locked up in the wood from which it is made from will be sequestered forever!  Help your university and the environment by purchasing your wooden mantel clock today! " 

[Ron Wenrich]

They sell a picture frame to hold your diploma for something like $150 at some of the student stores.  I was thinking of framing the diploma in what framed the walkways on campus.  Or possibly a nice desktop out of those mammoth American elms on campus. 

1 in 1,000 people in PA are Penn State grads.  The alumni society is something like 250,000 and there are currently 40,000 students at the main campus.  What a market.  And all universities have the same types of markets.  Some more fervent than others.

But, they won't part with any of the wood, for fear that someone will market it.  The university would get their cut, as they do with anything associated with their name.  But, they prefer not to have a bidding war for their urban timber.  Lots of potential for urban lumber if its marketed right.   

[Phorester]

I still can't understand the college's thinking on this. Seems they could contract with a woodworking firm for exclusive rights to wood from their trees to make products for them. 

[ohsoloco]

Ron, how long ago did you hear Penn State wasn't selling any of their logs?  Shortly after I first got my mill I contacted the man in charge of the tree pruning/cutting on campus.  He told me that they have the logs scaled and graded, and then sell them as salvage  ???

[Ron Wenrich]

I know the guy that buries the logs.  He works on campus and was sort of my inside man.  He made the inquiries and was told maybe a few logs for personal use.  The sort of wink/wink type of deals that are made with workers.  This was just last year.

[Dodgy Loner]

At UGA it's even a pain in the butt to get campus logs for things like student projects. Occasionally an art student will get a log do some sort of sculpture, but other than that, it's all under the table. The trees are used to mulch the landscaping on campus, so I suppose it's not a complete waste :-\.

[WDH]

Dodgy, how did you load the brute?

[Dodgy Loner]

I mounted two 5-ton hand-winches with 3/8" steel cable to the side of a 16-foot trailer and parbuckled the log using two 10' channel iron beams as ramps. I rigged it up a few years back to load a 10', 38" red oak log that I estimated at just under 5,000 lbs. It handled the log easily. I suspect a log that was not quite round would cause a little more trouble, but I haven't had a chance to test it out yet.

The channel iron ramps have proven themselves very useful. Even without the winches, I've been able to load several 2000- to 2500-lb logs by hand with a couple of peaveys (and a hard-working helper )