iDRY Vacuum Kilns

Sponsors:

Solubor and glycol

Started by brdmkr, May 04, 2007, 10:59:11 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Ironwood

Don P

Yes, PEG is an issue when finishing no doubt. The wood will be fully planed and sculpted before putting a finish on. For me the issue seem to mostly be in the cambium layer, I leave it on nearly all wood I mill. This is the GOOD starchy dessert for the little #$%^.  I may try coating just my outer live edges. This would hopefully work as breaking apart stacks of sticked lumber seem VERY unappealing (some of the recent walnut shown earlier in this thread are 400lbs each, I used the crane to stack them back on the pallet after photographing them).

               Reid

PS. yeah you can get a real good "sunburn" welding in short sleeves, been there done that (Once)
There is no scarcity of opportunity to make a living at what you love to do, there is only scarcity of resolve to make it happen.- Wayne Dyer

TexasTimbers

This has been very informative. I still have a couple questions but they are semantics more than anything. I have the big picture I believe.

Gotta agree with y'all on the shirt sleeves. I installed a 320' x 4' steel retaining wall in 2002 for a customer and made the sections up in a buddy's shop (mine wasn't built yet) and one of my hands refused to wear a helmet! He was using one of those half face cutting masks. I kept telling him he was going to get fried and he kept saying no I got it under control. I did everything but physially force him and finally Jimmy said "Let 'im learn Kev so he'll never forget." SO I shutup about it and never gave no more thought.
The next day he called and said he counldn't come to work he wasn't feeling to well. Come dinner time I slipped on over to his house unannounced and sure enough he has 2nd and 3rd degree burns on his face everywhere the mask wasn't covering. He looked like a bright red raccoon with blisters. He was absolutely miserable and needed hospitalization in my estimation but of course would not go. His remedy was to stay drunk.
Turns out the moron thought I was trying to tell him he was going to get hit by sparks, and not that the ultraviolet light was cooking him. I just took for granted he knew enough to know that welding creates a little ball of sun at your fingertips but he was dumber than I thought.
He could not work for a week. He only lasted a couple weeks after that I finally had to let him go, he required constant supervision.
I weld way too often with short sleeves myself. It doesn't cook as bad with these hairy arms but still it ain't smart.
The oil is all in Texas, but the dipsticks are in D.C.

PineNut

I tried using the borates without glycol but gave it up. Without glycol, the surface dries very quickly and crystals form on the surface. If they are on the surface, they are not in the lumber and are not doing any good. If you kept the surface wet for a period, I expect the borates would eventually move in the lumber, but it is a pain to keep the lumber wet. Also with the borates only, crystals will form in the sprayer very quickly, sometimes in less than an hour.

With the glycol, I find that the surface stays wet much longer. Also no crystals are left on the surface.  Also the life of the working solution is much longer. Bora-care says that the 1:1,  1:2  & 1:3  mixtures are good for 24 hours and 1:5 is good for 30 days. I have left 1:1 in the sprayer for a week or more without any problems.   

After trying both processes, I will stick with the glycol. I don't think that the cost is much more considering the chemical that moves into the wood. And with the labor factor, the glycol is the best method for me.


brdmkr

You guys hae me concerned with all the talk of 'sanding'.  I was aiming to treat and seal withone of the water sealers.  A friend has suggested a product called perma chink.  I am picking up the solubor Monday.  I really don't guess it matters wheter it has to be sanded or not.  I have to treate it or it will be eaten :o
Lucas 618  Mahindra 4110, FEL and pallet forks, some cant hooks, and a dose of want-to

Ironwood

Perma Chink is (to my knowlege) just a chinking for in between the logs. It is a great brand and a good product for that. Perhaps they are offering a wood treatment as well. I think Hess Log home suppply in central Pa. supplies one of the estates I deal with. They do get a log treatment from Hess but I am not sure if it is the Perma Chink brand or another, I know they get their chinking in a Perma Chink brand.

               Reid
There is no scarcity of opportunity to make a living at what you love to do, there is only scarcity of resolve to make it happen.- Wayne Dyer

brdmkr

I thought I would provide an update.  I treated the inside of the shop today.  I used solubor and EG.  I mixed an awful amout of solubor/3gallons of water while heating.  I did not boil, but I am convinced that I created a super-satureated solution.  I then used about a quart of EG in 3 gallons of mix.  The first batch, I may have made a little light as I used a quart jar of solubor/gallon of water.  I don't know where I got that idea, but solubor is REALLY light.  So, I went with the super-saturation approach after.  I used more like 2 - 3 quart jars/gallon of water.

Some observations

1. Given I just finished bleaching to get rid of mold, I can say that the EG really does keep the wood wet MUCH longer.

2.  I did NOT observe white crystals.  Did I do something wrong (I wet the wood to the point of run off).

3.  Once the wood was dry to the touch the EG smell was gone.

Now, I'll just have to sit back and see if it worked.  Thanks to all who provided input.
Lucas 618  Mahindra 4110, FEL and pallet forks, some cant hooks, and a dose of want-to

PineNut

Brdmkr, with the glycol, I don't think you will get the white crystals, which I consider an advantage. This means the boron is going into the wood rather than forming crystals on the surface. I have not observed any crystals when using glycol but had a lot of trouble when not using the glycol.

brdmkr

Thanks for the update on the EG.  I wondered if I had mixed it stout enough as I did not weight the solubor.  I just kept putting it in until it started settling out of solution.
Lucas 618  Mahindra 4110, FEL and pallet forks, some cant hooks, and a dose of want-to

jrkimroxie

Has anyone ever build a trough/vat to dip lumber/wood into. I'm treating 6"x12" cants for my log home and dipping would seem to insure total coverage. Any input is appreciated since I'm
finished sawing and am starting see powderpost signs.
Loving life 1 log at a time !!!!

Den Socling

How fancy do you want to get? I've seen wood troughs lined with plastic and I've seen stainless steel vats with forks that dipped a whole pack of lumber at a time.

beenthere

And the vat is the "easy" part, compared to the trick of immersing the timber and removing it to drain the excess back into the vat. And I mean "easy" with tongue-in-cheek, but have helped buld a vat for dipping siding boards that was along the idea Den mentioned - - a wood trough/vat lined with plastic.

Transferring chemical in an out of the vat needs to be considered in the design. A drip rack of some sort will help capture excess solution.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Ironwood

I would try plastic pipe (BIG) plastic pipe.

Ironwood
There is no scarcity of opportunity to make a living at what you love to do, there is only scarcity of resolve to make it happen.- Wayne Dyer

jrkimroxie

I was thinking of a wooden vat 18"wide x 18"deep x 20' long. I could submerged 2 - 6"x12"x18' cants side x side using my front end loader and chains. Let them sit a few hours, then dip another pair. My main concern is "the correct mixing ratio & how often to strengthen or replace the dip.
Loving life 1 log at a time !!!!

beenthere

Just might be you can use a hydrometer to determine the change in density of the solution, and add strength to bring it back to what you started with. That would be after you have the recipe for the beginning mix.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Sixacresand

I have not looked anywhere but Walmart, But where do you get Propolene glycol antifreeze?  Also is solubor the same as 20 mule team borax at the grocery store?  Who carries 50# bags of Solubor?  never seen it at the farm stores. 
    I was on board to buy boric acid power or granulated to mix with Borax from the grocery store to make  preservative.  This was based on a Navy recipe I saw on the internet.    I also plan to build a plastic line wooden vat with a metal roofing drain board. 

I have the 5/4 lumber stack/drying for the floor of a porch.  My plan is to plane it to 1", soak it in the vat (no need to treat shavings), dry again, then paint both sides with floor and deck paint.  That ought to last the rest of my life   :D

"Sometimes you can make more hay with less equipment if you just use your head."  Tom, Forestry Forum.  Tenth year with a LT40 Woodmizer,

WDH

John,

My brother runs a fertilizer/seed/farm supply business (Meherrin) in Hawkinsville and he can get the Solubor for you in 50# bags.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Sixacresand

Quote from: WDH on August 29, 2012, 09:55:02 PM
John,

My brother runs a fertilizer/seed/farm supply business (Meherrin) in Hawkinsville and he can get the Solubor for you in 50# bags.

Thanks Danny.  Maybe I can get the L & L in Milledgeville to order it for me.  If not, Hawkinsville is not that far. 
"Sometimes you can make more hay with less equipment if you just use your head."  Tom, Forestry Forum.  Tenth year with a LT40 Woodmizer,

WDH

Yes, they should be able to order it as it is a fertilizer additive for mixing with liquid fertilizer. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Den Socling

And the polypropylene glycol in antifreeze is not what you want as a wood preservative.

WDH

John,

I got you a bag today if you want it.  I can bring it Saturday.  If you don't need it, I will keep it as I use a lot of it.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

PineNut

I have been using the Navy mix that calls for 1 gal of antifreeze, 4 and ½ lbs of borax and 3 and ½ lbs of boric acid. This mix does require heating to 260 F. The best I can determine, this is similar to Boracare. I get the borax at Wal-Mart which is the cheapest place I have found. You can get the boric acid at Wal-Mart as roach power but I find it cheaper (even with shipping) to get it from www.chemistrystore.com in 55 lb bags (currently at 89.10 + shipping.)


Farm supply stores can order Solubor for you.

The above mix is water-soluble and will leach out when the wood is exposed to water. It is recommended for dry locations where it will not be wet. It is primarily for insect control.

While I would like to dip my lumber but I have not set up a tank for this. I have a drain board made from a 3 ft wide piece of metal roofing with removable plastic sides. Use a sump pump to pump the solution over the lumber. The removable sides let me pick the lumber up with a FEL. It takes about 5 gal of mixture to prime the system plus the amount you use. If dipping, the minimum solution would be considerable more. I use a 5:1 mix ratio, which is recommended for dipping or flowing. If spraying, you should use a considerable stronger ratio like 1:1 or 1:2. When applying with a roller, I have used a 1:3 ratio.

When treating lumber, I usually have it on the FEL beside the "tank". Then brush the sawdust off the lumber. (Don't want to spend money treating sawdust.) Lumber is placed over the tank and the solution is flowed over the lumber using a sump pump and hose. I wet it good on one side and the edge closest to me, then turn it over and do the other side and edge. Lumber is then stacked on the far side of the tank and the process repeated. Do not try to drain the solution off the lumber but let it stay and soak in to the lumber. After the stack is completed, the lumber is moved and left dead stacked for a day or so. Then it is sticked and dried. Sometimes when cutting 8 ft 2 x 4, I will stick it horizontally and vertically as it comes off the mill in a stack 3 wide by 4 high (1/2 inch stickers) and band it. Then treat the bundle as a unit. Less handling that way.   

Here are some photos of my facility.



Treatment "tank"


 



Filter


 

Left Coast Chris

Hi Guys,   I have used Timbore for a number of years and have done real well with it.   I started 10 years ago with massive powder post infestation in my shop racks of air dried English Walnut.  The ppb will crawl a mile to find the English Walnut sap wood.   I unloaded the whole shop of all the wood and sprayed with 10% Timbore powder in hot water.   

The way it works is killing the bettle as it is going in.  The holes are caused by the larve or hatched larve coming out.  Its too late to kill after you see the holes for that generation.   I quarentined all the wood for several months before restacking in the shop.  I had to retreat one or two boards again but no big deal.   The 10% solution is supposed to be a permanent treatment and it has done just that.  After the first bad several generation infestation I now treat any new wood going into an adjacent storage area and have had no bugs in that wood.....ever (knock on wood  :) )

If it is ppb you are after, the Timbore has worked real well in my case. 

Home built cantilever head, 24 HP honda mill, Case 580D, MF 135 and one Squirel Dog Jack Russel Mix -- Crickett

scsmith42

Question - if one goes the "antifreeze" route, what are the downsides to using standard green Ethylene Glycol based antifreeze instead of the special low toxicity Propylene Glycol antifreeze?

Other than being careful about animals licking the wood while it's wet, I would presume that the low amount of antifreeze absorbed by the wood is insufficient to be harmful to humans when working the wood.
Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

MikeySP

@Den Socling , I know it has been a day or two since you wrote in reply #43 above:

"And the polypropylene glycol in antifreeze is not what you want as a wood preservative."

I have searched to answer "why?" this is so, but to no avail. Would you tell me why this is true? I happened to buy some borax, boric acid, and rv antifreeze; but, don't want to waste my time if this is a poor performer. Thank you. -Mike


Don P

Den hasn't been on in a couple years.
Glycols are not wood preservatives their purpose is to hold a wet edge for the borate to move on. Either glycol will work for this purpose. For borating dry wood what you're wanting is a solution that dries slowly. As I mentioned in another thread a day or two ago borate only diffuses into or out of a cell when it is above fiber saturation point, when you can see the wet in the wood. That is what the glycol is doing. So your RV antifreeze is fine, often cheaper. I watch the drying conditions and doctor the mix with glycol based on how much I need to keep it wet, I'm stingy and cheap. BoraCare runs about 50/50, I typically run 5-10% glycol with dry wood unless it is very bright and dry. This isn't French perfume, hit it hard and multiple times if possible. I prefer a dip tray if possible.

BTW a few drops of dishwashing soap, not foamy just a few drops, will help break the surface tension and let the liquid wet out better.

Thank You Sponsors!