Offbearers and output question

[landscraper]

So, I normally cut alone, or at times with my teenage son.  Usually I fetch and stack a few logs at a time with the tractor, saw through them, throw the boards and slabs into separate piles to stack later, then do it all over again.  Today I had 2 offbearers help me for about 3.5 hours.  Neither of these guys had ever been around any kind of sawmill before but are used to hands-on labor work.   The mill hour meter actually indicated 3.2 hours key-in-the-switch sawing time, and in that period I got just under 700bf of mostly 2"x(4/6/8/10) in lengths from 8' to 16', and some 1"xRandomx16'.  That included carrying (tractor with forks) and stacking all the slabs at a separate location, and carrying (tractor with forks), stacking and stickering all the lumber in piles in a nearby pole barn sorted by size.  Logs were Shortleaf, Virginia Pine, and EWP, diameters from 12"-24", total logs was 10-12, 8' to 16'.  Had 2 blade changes in that period due to operator error (ahem  :-\), and had to do some edging on the 1" material due to wane. 

200bf an hour with an 23HP LT35H with 2 offbearers in that scenario sound right?  I'm sure my technique could be improved on with experience.  I ran the mill and the tractor.  I'm not considering my time piling up the logs ahead of time, just time cutting and stacking.  Woodmizer advertises up to 500bf/hr for this machine, I'm guessing that is on beams or cants?

[ladylake]

 
  500 bf per hour is real optimistic with a 23 hp mill.   Also you should just be running the mill, not the tractor, keep the blade in the wood as much as possible.  Steve

[Delawhere Jack]

I believe the advertised rates are based on an optimal setup. Best I've ever managed with my 24HP LT40 was 320bf/hr, and that was cutting red oak into full 2x8 trailer decking. The help on that job worked like they were born milling.

Edging or cutting stickers on the mill really reduces your output.

[Magicman]

Woodmizer advertises up to 500bf/hr for this machine, I'm guessing that is on beams or cants? 

That figure is unrealistic in a sawing situation without experienced help and an edger trimming the flitches.

Concentrate on your quality and forget the numbers.  Sure, you will have some very good productivity days, but there will be those other days...... :-\

[red oaks lumber]

the diameter of the logs you said along with the number of logs only yielded 700 b.f.?
the least amount of distance or least amount of handling will increase your out put.

[landscraper]

Thanks for the advice, I'm still sorting through my setup and getting organized with the new mill, only have 22 hours on it so far, up til now I was on the LT30 manual, different kettle of fish.  I'll try it again next time I have help and see what I can do different. 

[woodmills1]

I have done nearly 2000 ina day by myself with the 70 and edger, and that is not pushing either machine or me.  The best ever with the 24 horse LT 40 was over 4000 with 3 other workers two trucks to handle slabs and lumber and a log truck to spin logs onto the mill

[WoodenHead]

The diameter of the logs certainly has something to do with it.  Too small/short and they're a time killer, but too big (diameter) and they are too.  But your logs seem to be within the range.  My personal favourite is 14"-16" diameter logs (but I have a lot of demand for 1 x 10").  The 700bdft does seem a bit low for a total output. 

If you have helpers, the idea, as others have said, is for you to keep on milling.  They need to be bringing/loading logs, removing slabs/flitches, moving finished lumber. 

Having said that, I've found that I can't come anywhere close to published numbers for production.  When you factor in stickering/handling that number becomes even worse.  I would guess that 200bdft/hr is about right for sawing rate with help in decent logs.  Others with better setups likely get more than that.

[Jim H]

With being off and on the tractor, two blade changes, and 22hrs with the hydraulic mill I don't think your rate was too bad. As you get more time on the mill you'll get smoother and faster. Beyond that, as others have said, keeping the blade in the wood is essential for production. My best day ever was 5200ft of 4/4 in 8hrs on a 24hp mill, but I was sawing for the dept. of forestry and they had 8-10 guys with a bobcat, forklift, and a knuckleboom. Plus I was cutting 18"-24"longleaf and shortleaf pine that were as straight as pieces of pipe. On the other hand I've had plenty of jobs where I couldn't do 200ft/hr.

[thechknhwk]

I did 1600+ bf with one off bearer and a skid steer in 7.5hrs one day.  He was an animal though, He even had it all stickered.  The blade was in the wood almost all the time.

[drobertson]

Sounds like a good day with new help, and on a sunday, I'm sure it was a good day,  Off bearers really do change the game on production.

[Brucer]

I recently filled an order for 20 - 10x10x8', boxed heart timbers. It was easy sawing and out of curiosity I decided to time a few logs, plus figure out my overall output for the job.

Actual sawing (cutting and gigging back) - 11.5%.
Feeding the edger (with a helper) - 6.0%
---------------------------------------------------------
So actual sawing time was 17.5% of my total time.
Running the saw but not cutting (loading and turning logs) was 16.7% .
Working at the mill, engine off (shifting timbers, rolling logs) was 5.4% .
Support work (bucking and fetching logs, stacking timbers, stacking flitches,  refuelling, changing blades, etc) was 60.4%.
----------------------------------------------------------
That doesn't include any time for trimming and stacking the side lumber, which my part time helper does anyway.

That works out to 465 BF per sawing hour (if I ignore loading and turning time ???.) My actual average output was 530 BF per day for the entire job.

If I had been sawing 12' logs instead of 8' logs, I would increase my output by 50%, while only increasing my overall time by 9%. That would give me 640 BF/hour.

I could have turned the logs fewer times if I wasn't trying to make wane-free timbers and didn't worry about the odd timber being slightly off-square. But wane-free and square are two of my selling points.

These numbers show you the importance of material handling; the value of a helper (but only if you have the volume, which I don't); and the importance of log size. They also illustrate why upgrading to a diesel powered super hydraulic isn't going to help much -- because of the higher output rate, I would be spending more time handling material and less time sawing.

Most important of all, though, is this: BF/hour doesn't matter. What counts is $/hour. By spending a little more time (about 4% of the total) I can earn about 20% more (net).

[longtime lurker]

So here's the thing:
In a sawmill, regardless of size or species or whether it's a hobby or a production setup there's one thing that never changes.

You either pay for labour, or for labour saving devices
Even for a hobby mill, you pay that, it's just that the value you put on your time is less (but still cheaper then paying a therapist  :D)

As has been pointed out, it's not just sawing time that has to be factored in... the jobs not over till the timber is straightened, docked as required, stacked, stickered if necessary, then sold if you saw for a living. Log handling and sawn timber handling time really eats into  "real world" productivity numbers regardless of mill type unless you've got infeed and outfeed decks and optimised resaws etc. For smaller "portable" operators we spend more time doing the necessary support work then running the mill itself mostly.

Numbers ex my Lucas. (Dollar values because I never kept production values too closely)
Average return per hour 1 man operation (sales/engine hours) - $ 156 AUD
Average return per hour 2 man operation                                 - $ 183 AUD
Average return per hour 3 man operation                                 - $ 242 AUD
With three men I can pretty much shift to continuous sawing - I cut and pencil where it needs to be docked for grade if required, one guy off bears, runs the docker and stacks, and the third guy helps stack and keeps feeding me logs with the loader. Anything requiring a trip to the resaw goes into a separate pile for putting into the benches at home.

Best ever output - 2 men,  recovered 2.9 m3 (1225 BF) in 2.5 hours from lifting the log under the mill to strapped pack (cutting 3 x 1 1/2 roof batten) Pretty exceptional log though - I wish I could get one of them every week.

It does pay to figure out your production rates, it's a business for some of us, but even if its a hobby you need to know when it's cheaper to go buy stuff down the road from a production setup. And if you start paying wages for your help you really do need to know what works and what doesn't, and when its better to turn down an order as unviable.

My $0.02

[Chuck White]

A few years ago, I did I believe 2,700 bf of White Pine on a 10-hour day.

I had 4 off-bearers on the other side and I never had to wait for anything and we had a 20-minute lunch break.

That was my best day and it was a walk-along, didn't use the Operator Seat that day!  Wished I had.

[YellowHammer]

This is the best tip I can give for trying to find lost production time is ......a big clock mounted right in my line of sight when I'm sawing (below and left of the water jug).  Every time sawdust stops coming out of the chute, I look at the clock and try to figure why and how long.  As some of these other posts highlight, it doesn't matter how much horsepower the mill has if it's not cutting wood. :D
YH

[POSTON WIDEHEAD]

And while you were taking this pic....downloading it into your folder......writing a reply  and posting this pic.......

TIC.....TOC.....TIC.....TOC.....TIC.....TOC..... :D

[Magicman]

In order for me to use a clock, it would require that I remember where the hands were the last time I looked.  Therein lies the problem because my rememberer is busted.

[YellowHammer]

Sometimes when the battery is dying and the clock is slowing down, it makes me feel like I'm sawing faster.   ;D

A farmer friend of mine once told me a story of an old crotchety sawyer he hired a few years ago who had a seat equipped mill and was paid by the hour.  The sawyer set the mill up, climbed into the seat and in no uncertain terms told my friend and his farm hand "Whenever I get out of this seat it means you are not doing your job and it's costing you money because I'm not sawing."  :D
Pretty quick, on their own, they figured out a system to keep the guy in his seat, the saw in the wood, and the dust coming out of the chute.   ;D
YH

[Magicman]

I have a seat and maybe I am old and crotchety too, because I have told the same thing to many hourly customers.   :D

[goose63]

In order for me to use a clock, it would require that I remember where the hands were the last time I looked.  Therein lies the problem because my rememberer is busted.

Thanks for clearing that up M M all this time I been thinking it was c r s cant remember sheet : :D

[thecfarm]

It's the way a person says it that matters.  ;) I doubt Magicman said it in no uncertain terms.

[ely]

I do not saw for a living, I saw and I am happy... I make my money by not buying any lumber in town to build my home or anything else I need.
something about sawing,... I sometimes think I would saw lumber for free if I had to... just not going to mention that to john Q at this time...
yesterday I had my dad saw up a cedar for a mantle for a customer. because he was home and I was not... I told him to sell it to the lady for 45 bucks. I also had him make two slabs for benches and one other mantle piece. the lady seen the other slabs and he sold her the whole log for 60 bucks. except she didn't want the bench slabs or the one by 14 out of the middle.

[GDinMaine]

My best day sawing alone was about 1400bf in 6 hours. That was impressive for me.

I was sawing straight logs, most were 18-26" diameter.  All were 1" boards, 18' long and 8-12" wide.   It was a perfect setup where I hardly had to roll the logs and the customer moved the slabs and boards at the end of each day, so I could stack right next to the mill.

I think WM comes up with the advertised rates based on a single PERFECT log with two very experienced people.  They start up the mill, put on the perfect log, saw it - pushing the mill to the MAXIMUM - and then edge the boards on a separate machine.  When that log is done they stop the clock.  Multiply that by X number of logs and there you have a BF/HR rate that is impossible in a real life situation for the single sawyer.  In any case, I think people and machine could not maintain that pace for long before something breaks or someone gets hurt.

[Peter Drouin]

I think WM comes up with the advertised rates based on a single PERFECT log with two very experienced people.  They start up the mill, put on the perfect log, saw it - pushing the mill to the MAXIMUM - and then edge the boards on a separate machine.  When that log is done they stop the clock.  Multiply that by X number of logs and there you have a BF/HR rate that is impossible in a real life situation for the single sawyer.  In any case, I think people and machine could not maintain that pace for long before something breaks or someone gets hurt.

If you could work and cut like them, Then you can do it too. ;D
I have beat the BF before and not hurt me or machine. ;D

[drobertson]

Peter I don't know you personally, and would not in any way want to come off wrong that would sound as I did doubt your claims, but I do have to  say, the time taken  scaling and cleaning the logs, not to mention making a plan is figured into the time with the logs before sawing. It does add up, and as you mentioned, experience is the key factor in making maximum footage from a given log.    And to keep this pace for even 4 hrs would be chore for anyone, or team.  Equipment will breakdown, and you never really know when.