Herbicide question

[woodtroll]

We have a question on herbicide for killing pine trees. We are thinking frilling or girdling but have a few questions on which herbicide to use.
Our end goal is to kill a bug infested tree and ruin it as a host tree, and preventing new beetles from developing and flying off to reproduce.
We are talking ponderosa pine and mountain pine beetle.
I know herbicide gets drawn into the roots to prevent sprout and kill the roots but does it get drawn up the stem?
I also think it needs a good basal oil to penetrate past the pine sap.
Any input?

[RynSmith]

I was under the impression that once you saw a tree 'flagging' the bugs had already moved on.  Is this not the case?  How do you decide which trees to treat?

Sorry, my pesticide license has long since expired, so I'm no help with your actual question...  :-\

[beenthere]

Maybe a systemic insecticide would kill them. But sounds like you are trying to do something after discovering them in a tree.

Woodtroll.  Who is "we" ??

[woodtroll]

Sorry I dropped off this tread, I was out of the office for a bit.
The bugs fly as the tree is fading. We start spotting shortly after they fly, so, now.
The pitch tubes are what we look for. The tree then slowly dies over the next year eventually fading in July as the bugs fly. The trees turn red that fall. By then the bugs are gone.
Currently for direct control the tree is cut and the bark scraped or scoured or burned. Maybe even rapped in plastic. Anything that will damage the beetles as they develop.
If we can kill the tree quicker then them with a herbicide it may hinder their development. We are not trying to save an individual tree but stop the spread from one tree to five or five to twenty.
This is a front line defense to keep this area from looking like Colorado or other heavy hit areas.

[woodtroll]

The conclusion is coming in that the pine produce to much sap. Preventing good herbicide penetration.

[SwampDonkey]

Not only that, but it's my understanding if that wood isn't destroyed or processed (chips, lumber) some bugs live there for the next year's generation. Just a brooding hotel.  ;) The reason I always say those pine beetles on thousands of acres should be burnt, no way to out cut them.  Smoke and fire will kill anything. If those stands are left dead standing, chances are they are going to burn up some day anyway. I'd probably be the guy being hung. :D

[woodtroll]

We have had two flights out in one season, but no carry over to the next season. This is with Mountain Pine Beetle.
Here is how it works around here (Wyoming side of the Black Hills), (of course the bugs don't read the books). July -August adult beetles fly from their host tree. They mass attack the new tree(s). Maybe next to the original tree or a mile or two away depending on the winds and stand conditions. The adults bore into the cambium layer and make a J shaped gallery and lay their eggs. Meanwhile the tree is trying to pitch the beetles out with sap, developing pitch tubes which are visible. Blue stain, a fungus is also brought in by the beetle. It starts to spread through the tree, hindering the trees ability to defend itself by blocking up the phylum and xylem. The larva hatch and then continue the eating of the cambium layer, killing the tree. Our trees don't start turning color till May. Then they really show up in July. By end of July to mid Aug they start over and fly. The tree then is host to a cast of many other bugs.
So if we can hinder the development from now till July we can reduce or prevent the next years flight. The beetles and larva are not real tough, and need the conditions of a healthy pine to develop.
Here is how we break the cycle to reduce spread, after we find new hits.
-Cut the tree, (that in itself messes them up some) and always our first step.
-buck the log into fire wood length (splitting for firewood helps).
-burning the bark layer (limited to winter time)
-scrap the bark off.
-wrap in plastic, (this changes the humidity, temp, and can just hold them in.) They aren't real smart cant get them selves out of a plastic bag.
So if we can break that cycle, screw them up and the less work the better.
The best thing is to have a thinned healthy stand to prevent their spread.

[SwampDonkey]

That might be cost effective on small acreages, but there isn't enough manpower to cover millions of acres. I say if you can control them on small acreages fine, otherwise burn the buggers. ;D You need to convince your government to do pre-commercial thinnings and later thinnings. Creates a lot of jobs and the government just recycles that cash anyway. People working at it have to eat and pay for stuff like anyone else. ;D

[woodtroll]

By treating the small acres, or small populations you prevent the millions of acres.
Many areas are lost. Not ours. So by treating the small pockets, while thinning and logging our acres, we hope to stay ahead of the bugs. So far so good.
Locally are mills are producing as much as they can sell.  They are not paying any more than they need to which is minimal.
At least we have an industry to log and thin unlike CO. southern WY.
"Spare the saw spoil the forest!"

[Pilot1]

15 or 20 years ago there was a study where they put out baiting stations, I believe with a pheromone.  My memory is very rusty on this, but I think the thinking went as follows:

When a beetle successfully attacks a tree, it puts out a pheromone that says, "Hey, I got one, come on, guys!" and attracts other beetles to the tree.  At some point, they have enough beetles and they produce another pheromone that tells other beetles not to bother with this tree.

The strategy is to use the second pheromone in a stand to confuse the beetles so they won't congregate on any particular tree, failing to gather enough for a successful attack.

That's about all I can remember.  Google "Verbenone Pheromone" for more info and probably better info.

[mad murdock]

We have done applications of Verbenone Phermone with good results in Idaho, Washington, Oregon and California.  We have been involved with test plots using liquid phermone, and phermone laced "disrupter" flakes.  The feds have been extremely slow to get a large scale project going.  We first started doing tests with these products on pine and mountain beetle in 2001.  Almost 10 years later there has been no attempt by state or federal agencies to get a handle on the bug problem.  Private timber companies and some of the REIT's here in the NW us have done a bit more.  Unless the problem is dealt with by all landowners, including the fed and state land managers, I don't think there is much hope to mitigate anything. I believe that we are now at the mercy of nature itself, as the dithering has lasted too long with no hope of a real solution in the near future.  At least that is what I view from where I sit.  Maybe there is a better view for others on the forum?

[SwampDonkey]

We dealt with the budworm here with a comprehensive spray program, even private woods were sprayed. There hasn't been a whole lot of damage nor spraying since 1993 around here. One thing to, the forest has changed a lot since the early 80's. A lot of the over mature and old softwood are mostly cut (or fell down) except the riperian buffers which if were in the same state of majority are already worm food by now. Our forest is a whole lot younger and more vigourous than the last round of budworm and we thin every bit of crown that needs it as it comes online. Removing all that old growth had it's consequences to, it killed a lot of deer as there was no winter ground for thermal cover and no old man's beard moss to eat. When you cut a fir around a deer yard they would strip the beard moss off the branches over night. We have stripped a lot of our cedar lands off over the last couple decades and has resulted in far fewer deer around farming country as they can't live in hardwood in the winter. So, it's mature softwoods, fir, spruce cedar, hemlock. These are becoming small parcels hard to get to for logging or the landowner that doesn't cut wood here and there and far between. So the herds are a tiny group.

[Pilot1]

MadMurdock,

I just remembered one of the problems the feds are having with the Verbenone:  Their own idiocy.  They classified it as a pesticide, even though it has no direct action or toxicity on the bugs.  That means a bunch of environmental assessment work.  Management has to support the work and they probably don't as the Forest Service has very few timber people left.  On my old district it's all recreation, ski area management and other non-timber people now.  Last week we retirees had a our annual Christmas breakfast get-together and all the timber people I worked with were there. 

[woodtroll]

Verbenone has had good or moderate success elsewhere. It is not working that well here. It runs around $20 a tree per year. It has worked with some pinion pine (which is scarce here). Seven sprayed on the lower log has worked well also, it runs around $15 a tree per year.
We are actively searching out bug trees and trying direct control. The feds are doing what they do. Better then elsewhere but still bound by their own regs. Some are trying to bypass NEPA with urgent removal, but they still hit walls.
It takes a coordinated effort, fed, state and private working together. There is a fed unit that has 1400 fresh hits slated for a sale but they can not get access across private. Some bad logging history rearing its ugly head. A bad job 10 years ago - no access now, so 1,400 bug trees this year 6000 the next and all the neighbors affected.