Idenifying affected Ash trees?

Just Me · February 06, 2011, 08:07:04 AM

I have been leaving the ash trees on my property as long as they are still alive as it is the best place to store them until I need flooring. Last year they still had leaves, but I noticed some light tan spots on the bark. I have seen this downstate on trees that were dying/dead.

Is that a symptom of the ash borer?

I'm not ready for flooring yet and am short on storage at the moment, but if it would be best to harvest them now I will find room.

Please advise.

Thanks, Larry

Jeff · February 06, 2011, 08:16:37 AM

I've never heard of tan spots being an indicator. Look for dying out in the tops of the trees as a first indicator, but then that is not always EAB. You want to look at the bark for d shaped emergent holes.

Just Me · February 06, 2011, 08:30:59 AM

Thanks Jeff.

bitternut · February 06, 2011, 12:58:21 PM

I have never seen a tree infected with the borers but it is my understanding that they start at the top of the trees and work their way down. Supposedly the tops would show dead areas first and would be an indicator but there could be other causes also for dead limbs in the top. Guess maybe you will have to climb a few trees to check for the "D" shaped exit holes. Since you are in Michigan I am sure if you don't have the borers yet you soon will. :(

Seems like some of the other folks in Michigan should be able to share some of their first hand experience and knowledge about the pest.

Jeff · February 06, 2011, 01:02:49 PM

Quote from: bitternut on February 06, 2011, 12:58:21 PM
Seems like some of the other folks in Michigan should be able to share some of their first hand experience and knowledge about the pest.

What the hell am I? Chopped Liver?

You don't have to climb the trees to find the d holes if they exist.
http://www.stopthebeetle.info/signs-symptoms/

John Mc · February 06, 2011, 01:59:37 PM

Bitternut -

If you are in Western New York, and have not yet seen an Ash tree infected with the EAB, you will. It's already in several of the counties out that way, I believe.

John Mc

SwampDonkey · February 06, 2011, 02:15:57 PM

It's in the Sault and the Soo, since the St Marys river is all that separate the two. Since Jeff's a part time resident ;) up in the eastern UP, I suppose he's seen it to. ;)

Just Me · February 06, 2011, 04:02:39 PM

I wonder what the light tan blotches on the bark are from? it is something I have not seen until the last couple of years, and I have been looking at ash trees for years. That is where you will find morels. Used to be elm, then ash. Where will we find those tasty mushrooms now?

SwampDonkey · February 06, 2011, 04:41:55 PM

Is it a lichen on the bark? Up here white ash gets white blotches on the bark like most maple and large tooth aspen. Not a sign of much other than a tree getting to pole stage.

What are these blotchy stems? This is New Brunswick so you can eliminate all that southern flora. ;D

Jeff · February 06, 2011, 04:45:24 PM

Quote from: SwampDonkey on February 06, 2011, 02:15:57 PM
It's in the Sault and the Soo, since the St Marys river is all that separate the two. Since Jeff's a part time resident ;) up in the eastern UP, I suppose he's seen it to. ;)

I've spent hours manning a mfra information booth telling and showing people what to look for in their trees dating back to the early part of this century. :-\

bitternut · February 06, 2011, 05:53:53 PM

What the hell am I? Chopped Liver?

No you are not chopped liver. No offense intended but I have no way of knowing what you have seen and have not seen, or any one else for that matter. I do know that I have participated in a couple of classes by people that have been studying these borers and they stressed the fact the borers started at the top of the tree first and that by the time you found the D shaped holes at lower levels it was pretty much too late for that tree. Maybe they were feeding us a lot BS, maybe not.

All the borers that I have seen were dead in a small vial that was passed around the class. I am sure that in the very near future they will be in my woods since they are within 40 miles or so already.

Have a good day ;D

SwampDonkey · February 06, 2011, 06:04:57 PM

When the snows get deep in northern Michigan the sleeping bears get testy when awakened from their slumber. ;)

Jeff · February 06, 2011, 08:08:14 PM

Quote from: bitternut on February 06, 2011, 05:53:53 PM

I do know that I have participated in a couple of classes by people that have been studying these borers and they stressed the fact the borers started at the top of the tree first and that by the time you found the D shaped holes at lower levels it was pretty much too late for that tree.

Well what else do you want me to say? Exactly what you just said, I said in the previous post and I'm from Michigan. Then you come along and say maybe somebody from michigan might be able to give some information. Made me feel like chopped liver. Should I give you a bigger font for your next post?

Reddog · February 06, 2011, 08:38:09 PM

Quote from: Just Me on February 06, 2011, 08:07:04 AM
Last year they still had leaves, but I noticed some light tan spots on the bark.

Sounds like it could be where the exit holes are. We see some light colored spots where the bark flakes off around the holes. If you are only seeing these spots up high this year that is where it starts.

If you can get a picture it would help diagnose it.

mrcaptainbob · February 06, 2011, 10:22:06 PM

I agree with Chopped Liver. There were a lot of ash along the west line of my property and that of the neighbor to the south of me at my last house. And it was so obvious of how that infestation was moving along. The tree tops were definitely the first to go. And it was so obvious, too, the direction of travel. It appeared to have been moving from the north, as my trees were caught one year, and the next year the first few of his were. The following year, the rest of his were dying out at the tops. That was about ten or twelve years ago. Sure is sad to see that area bare of beauty.

Just Me · February 07, 2011, 08:04:14 AM

I'll be out there today and take pictures. Sounds like I may have to harvest them sooner than I wanted. How long can they stand before the lumber is degraded?

bitternut · February 07, 2011, 08:26:45 AM

I reread the posts that you made on this topic Jeff and I saw that I had misread your first post. For some reason I had missed the fact that you told Larry about the dying crowns. I guess it was either a senior moment or too much multi tasking. For that I apologize. I was merely trying to be of some help to Larry and not trying to belittle anyone. I know that you live in Michigan which is in the heart of EAB problems but that is all I know. Your comment to me kind of ruffled my feathers which I also apologize for.

Guess maybe I should do more reading and a lot less typing in the future and I won't have to worry about getting jumped on.

Hope everyone has a good day

Reddog · February 07, 2011, 08:31:19 AM

From what I have cut down, by the first year that they show leaf loss in the canopy the butt log will can be stained. By the time the canopy is dead there is enough degrade it will only make firewood. But we have heavy clay soil here and that may cause it to degrade faster.

SwampDonkey · February 07, 2011, 03:31:12 PM

A dead hardwood in summer doesn't take long to start spoiling or staining. Yellow birch is worst than many and ash may be OK if it dies mid summer. But better tend to it. I have seen ash turn black on the ends down at Garants tool factory before being processed. Bark still on.

chain · February 07, 2011, 08:59:41 PM

I found a pole sized tree that realized after I had hacked & squirted that may be an ash. It was in a stand of hickory and red maple I was culling down in a hollow. What was curious about the tree was a 1/4" or so groved trail about 12" in length running diagonally down across the bark. The trail was not deep, maybe a 1/32". [I've tried to find the darned tree again to take a photo but no luck yet] At the time, as I was moving at a pretty good clip, did not think of looking for a D-hole. Question is ...does the EAB leave a trail before or after boring?

Jeff · February 07, 2011, 10:39:48 PM

They will leave "galleries" under the bark. The d hole is the exit hole and they don't mark the tree after emerging.

mrcaptainbob · February 07, 2011, 11:15:34 PM

I was surprised to see that I transported an EAB when I moved here. It was about an 85 mile move. I did not transport any wood across quarantined zones. But I did move a load of common brick, the kind with eight holes in them...and an EAB crawled from one of those openings! I guess they don't travel in just ash.

SwampDonkey · February 08, 2011, 07:21:18 AM

There are also similar beetles that will make engravings under the bark. I see those patterns on most any dead hardwood with the bark falling off. Many in the buprestidae group, they will leave an oval exit hole and the grubs are flat-headed.

chain · February 08, 2011, 09:51:33 AM

Guess I'm getting paranoid about the EAB, not that I could do much about it. The county just a few miles south of our Tree Farm is under EAB quarantine. Ash are actually a rare tree in our neck of the woods, may have to wait until leaf-out to ID what scored the bark, the trail very similar to the inside bark galleries. Thanks for the photo.

Jeff · February 08, 2011, 09:59:40 AM

Rare puts things on your side. If you don't have a high population of Ash, then you won't have a high population of EAB. They may not find you for quite some time. You see the same thing here still today with Elm Trees. Isolated elm trees that are still surviving dutch elm. I was saddened this year to see two such trees in the U.P., huge trees out in the middle of a section field that I have admired for years, finally succumb. They were not completely dead this last summer, but it looked like over 50% of the crown was dead on both of them. I would not be surprised if they are completed dead this spring.