Selling veneer

[Woodboogah]

I have just bought stumpage on a piece (first one) and everything has been going smooth with the landowner he was happy with the price.  However, I just received a phone call from him asking about the value of his veneer wood.  I knew there was potentially veneer on the property and would pay appropriately.  In a contract would just put pay market value when sold? Would a veneer buyer even come out and look at standing trees and give what they estimate the bdft of what they think could potentially be veneer?  I want to do the right thing for both the seller and myself.  To many people have a bad name in the area and I dont want to be added to that list.  Thank you for any and all advice.   I should add I have not started to cut this piece yet. 

[OntarioAl]

Woodboogah
Welcome to the world of buying timber on stumpage, the phone call was not a coincidence, your landowner has been talking about his timber sale and somebody has put a bug in his ear. It happens all the time.
I am assuming that your deal is a % based on market value at time of sale. Your duty is to get the best value for the timber for yourself and the landowner.
I rather doubt that a veneer buyer will cruise your timber and give you an estimate, they don't do it up here, they usually want to see the veneer on the landing and they will scale and purchase it there.
That being said , have you ever cut veneer? If not bad cutting practice and poor merchandising can turn high priced veneer into firewood.
If you I would  contact the veneer buyers in your area see if you can spend some time with them to see what they are looking for and at the same time meet some fellow contractors that may be forthcoming with veneer cutting techniques (not all will be willing to though).
Keep your landowner in the loop let him know about the research you are doing as the cut progresses get him/her out and walk them through the operation.
If you are contracting out the trucking do your homework here there are good truckers and there are very bad ones, the bad ones will torpedo your operation and give you a bad name as a contractor very quickly.
Once you have cut and sold veneer you will be able to do your own cruising and estimate potential veneer  production. I have done this as a Forester/Logging Contractor for 35 years and that is the first item I look for because it pays top dollar.
Hope this helps
Al 

[Kemper]

Most veneer buyers will buy it standing, but a rule of thumb is they will kick about 1 out of four out to make sure they protect themselves if it cuts bad. You will get a better price if it's on the landing and marked to where they want it cut. I have given the land owner 60% on veneer, seems to make them happy and still plenty on my end.

[Woodboogah]

Thanks for the replies, I really appreciate it.  The landowner told me he got his information from his friend who is a forester.   I am hiring out trucking and it is the person who usually feeds me work.  He has a good reputation and has treated me well so far.  I have heard through the grapevine who to stay away from and foresters not to use, etc.  It amazes me the stories I hear and how people stay in business.  Now the guy trucking my wood has outlets for most markets, he is buying all the other wood coming out, good and bad.  Would it be the right thing to do to contact him and see who he uses, or even if he would buy it?  Or just go straight to a veneer buyer.  I am trying to do my best to keep a good name for myself and not step on toes.  Up until now he has helped me out immensely in this whole logging business.  I dont want to burn bridges. Thanks again for the replies.  I have learned an awful lot from this site and hope to continue to learn more. 

[Kemper]

If he's that important and trust worthy then yes, I would say something to him first. He will know the best thing to do.

Thanks for the replies, I really appreciate it.  The landowner told me he got his information from his friend who is a forester.   I am hiring out trucking and it is the person who usually feeds me work.  He has a good reputation and has treated me well so far.  I have heard through the grapevine who to stay away from and foresters not to use, etc.  It amazes me the stories I hear and how people stay in business.  Now the guy trucking my wood has outlets for most markets, he is buying all the other wood coming out, good and bad.  Would it be the right thing to do to contact him and see who he uses, or even if he would buy it?  Or just go straight to a veneer buyer.  I am trying to do my best to keep a good name for myself and not step on toes.  Up until now he has helped me out immensely in this whole logging business.  I dont want to burn bridges. Thanks again for the replies.  I have learned an awful lot from this site and hope to continue to learn more.

[BargeMonkey]

 Yeah its great to pay the homeowner the most you can, but dont short yourself, keep that in mind. If we plan on cutting enough veneer or high dollar stumpage the buyer will usually be more than happy to come right to the job. We let him mark it most of the time, different mills have different needs. All boils down to who your comfortable with. A few inches wrong or fiber pull, split, and youve turned good money into so-so money.

[Stephen Alford]

   Hey Woodboogah, just as a heads up be sure to clarify the "time line" from stump to mill, can impact value.

[treeslayer2003]

I try to steer clear of the word veneer, grade is a better term. many times a tree will have 4-5 different grades of logs.  it is difficult to give a price on the whole stand that is fair, that's why I prefer to do grade on %. try to cut every tree right so you won't ever decrease the value. no one has x ray eyes.
it will be hard to get a buyer to give you any price without seeing the logs. ask around about the buyers in your area. ask if any exporters to.

[CX3]

When I buy timber I just put in the contract so much percentage on grade, ties, and pallet material. Usually 50/50 grade, 60/70 me 40/30 them on tie or lower depending on terrain

[Ed_K]

Cersosimo's forester came to a lot I worked on for 1 cherry tree,$1. bf even made sugestions on how to cut it down and buck.So yes some buyers will take the time.I would first take to your trucker tho,may save a lot of calls.

[beenthere]

Being as the landowner brought it up, maybe set down with him and discuss how he would like to see any veneer or high grade logs handled.
Getting him to say what he wants will take some of the onus off of you and hopefully both of you can come to a good agreement. He may not understand that the veneer logs are not out there easily identifiable. That usually happens when a buyer looks at the logs laid out. 

[Woodboogah]

Thanks again for all the great advice.  I am going to head down and talk with my truck driver today.  He has been good to me and I don't want to ruin that relationship.  I talked to the landowner yesterday and explained to him that standing wood could look nice and clear on the outside and but once its on the ground it's a different story.  He has stayed in contact with me for over a year now and has told me he wants me to cut his lot.  Makes me feel good.  He was understanding talking to him about trying to determine the value of the wood while standing is essentially speculation.  I am going to pay him on a percentage basis at market price at the time of cut.  Thanks again for all the input. 

[coxy]

I have found the best way to tell a veneer log is when the buyer puts his tag on it  some of the logs I think should go don't some times my buyer will go in my saw log pile and pull out a few that I thought would not go 

[Woodboogah]

I went and talked with my truck driver this morning.  He also walked to property with me to help me estimate what I  should be paying for stumpage.  He told me that after everything is said and done and I would be better off keeping high grade saw logs.  Keep in mind this lot is only about 12 acres with a power line right of way that knocks off about and acre or so.  The cut is just a thinning to release the young oak in there which has great potential.  He may have about 1MBF of veneer logs.  I would assume I get back charged for not having a full load.  The Veneer buyer that is not my truck driver wants to buy all the wood if I sell him the veneer.  I don't truck my own woods, he would take it delivered but I know i would get back charged for not having a full load.  The landowner keeps running everything I say by his buddy who is a forester, which is fine but he has no vested interest in this wood.  The wood is standing and it is all speculation at this point that is it even veneer.  This whole buying stumpage thing is becoming a bigger headache then what it seems to be worth.  When I did residential tree work everyone thought there nice straight white pine was worth a million dollars for me to take it down for free.  Not the case.

[OntarioAl]

Woodboogah
Like I said in my first reply "Welcome to the world of buying timber on stumpage"
Lots of people have inflated ideas as to the worth of timber and that includes Foresters and urban tree owners (as I see you have had experience with).
Your trucker gave you sound advice if I were you I would go with it.
A veneer buyer that wants all the wood sets off warning bells he obviously has other interests.
Any veneer buyers I have delt with up here  came to the bush and scaled right on the landing they were interested in veneer only and would give priced based on species and lf you supplied the trucking or they had their trucker pick it up (usually for less than truck load the picked up price was a win win situation)
Hope this helps
Al

[barbender]

Woodboogah, I understand your frustration. When I used to work on a residential asphalt paving crew, there were several times the homeowner wasn't happy with how the job turned out. Often these folks had a friend in the Minneapolis metro area who was a paving "expert", who would tell the homeowner how we should have done it. It was very aggravating, as our work was top notch, as good as any I've seen anywhere I've been in the country. People who had never even looked at the situation who had sage advice >:( Still, you should be able to come up with a contract that is fair to both of you, I would think a % of sold value, at least on the veneer. I sure wouldn't be paying him for veneer that you hope is in a tree. Tell him to pay his friend to come out, cruise the sale, and draw up a contract if he feels the need to be in the middle of things. That comes out of the landowners part, not yours. Sometimes you have to just tell folks "Look, this is what I will pay for it, if that doesn't work, respectfully, go find someone else to do it." It sounds like you have plenty of experience in how to handle that from your tree service work.  OntarioAl just posted as I was typing this, X2 everything he said. I just got a price list from a local hardwood mill in the mail, they listed their delivered price by the cord (that's the way it's done up here) and then a note that they would want all the grade logs and veneer off of the job. The problem is they want it "woods run", for the flat by the cord rate. I'm thinking, "why would I let you have the veneer for the same price when it would pay twice as much or more somewhere else?" Some of these mills, they throw a fit if they find out you are sorting the higher value stuff out, even though what you are bringing them completely meets their specs ???  A guy can't win on either end :

[Woodboogah]

I agreed to pay him a percentage if he did want me to go ahead and sort out what could possibly be bought for veneer.  I also explained to him but cutting off butt flare, seems and other defects to get a veneer log he may be losing in the long run.  I left it at its his wood he can ultimately do what he wants with it.  However, everyone has to get pain and in the end that is coming out of stumpage.  I was also told he had a contract written up 5 years ago and the price of veneer was separated on the contract and he could see the price difference compared to grade logs.  I wanted to say thats great the price is differentiated on the contract doesnt mean that any of it is coming out of the woods.  Anyway, I am trying to keep everyone happy, I am learning a lot very quick.  I am just going to cut how I always have if there is veneer wood then so be it.  I have done well to this point so I must be doing something right.  Thanks again, there is a wealth of knowledge of this site, great people!

[BargeMonkey]

 You cant make everyone happy 100% of the time. The minute I see an "expert" or another logger on my header telling the homeowner on my job telling them a different tune, things will get ugly real quick. There are so many fly by night loggers out there we all get a bad wrap as thieves and wood bandits. Sit down with the homeowner and agree to a fair % on stumpage and go on your way, if it costs you more to cut and skid why agree to pay more and lose money from your pocket. Why will I bring 1/2 a million in equipment to a job to just break even, isnt going to happen.

I lost a nice woodlot a few years ago to a homeowner seeing $$$, he went with a different forester and logger. Well... remember every forester can be just as crooked. There was a huge over run on volume when the other logger cut it, the home owner was never paid for it, lots of good stuff. The homeowner lost his %#! ^, got left with a mess and the forester just laughed. Something to keep in mind.

[treeslayer2003]

that's right barge monkey, I give my best fair price first. if somebody else wants it worse than so be it. my buyer and good friend told me when I was starting out; you ain't gonna buy it all and you can't cut it all. he was right.

[jwilly3879]

We usually work on a percentage, this lot is 50% after trucking on all logs, 55% on veneer. The pine just goes to the local mill and we are paid straight through down to 8". Hardwood logs we sell to a buyer who comes to the landing, scales and pays right there. Any disputes are ironed out before the logs go on his truck and he will explain why this log wasn't what I thought it was. After working with him for several years we know what he wants and how he wants them cut. We usually turn low grade logs into firewood, there is more money in it for us and the landowner agreed because we are doing a lot of work for low grade wood. We have had some nice hardwood logs but they are few and far between, the cream of the crop was cut 30 years ago and now there is a lot of big junk. I hate it when a lot is cut that way but it was the norm around here years ago. The work we are doing now should result in some really nice wood for my grandson to cut some day.

[BargeMonkey]

Exactly what he just said. Its been so "high-graded" around here the awesome big money lots are hard to find, I ship 20 loads of firewood for every choice load of good logs. Anything above a #2 or if it looks so so goes into the processor.

[coxy]

same here I looked at 50a of 90% ash with woodpecker holes in more then half and lo thinks it worth big money its big trees but there junk I asked why the other guy didn't cut them he said they where not the size he was looking for at the time and  told him if he waited 5years they would be worth more I told the lo that if he would of cut some of them then and left those 14in butt cherry he would of got more    some of the ash are 20in dbh with woodpecker holes   most every one around here that's all they want is cherry cherry cherry

[ehp]

So I'm guessing your veneer is oak, is it red oak, white oak or what as that makes a difference on what to do , On any veneer I cut around here I never buck the tree up till the veneer buyer is on the landing so that helps with the log checking , all veneer buyers here buy on the landing and pay right then so if it checks later its not your problem but most drive steel S's in the end of the logs , Is this veneer going for rotory or sciler veneer , around here the best I can get for red oak is $1700/1000 , white oak is $2500/1000 , red oak sawlogs is $800/1000 and white oak is $900/1000 so veneer pays more money plus there is no trucking to pay for with veneer but the biggest thing is you need to trust whom ever your working with and feel they are doing the best they can for you

[Woodboogah]

The veneer is would all be red oak.  It is paying better then saw logs as usual but there may be 3-5 veneer logs.  That's it.  The landowner knows what the price of veneer is but not the price to cut, skid, buck, truck, etc.  With that little amount in my opinion its not worth the time and effort.  This cut is mostly getting rid of over mature pine some mature junk oak and junk hard wood to release some really nice red oak.  Thanks again for all the feedback, its much appreciated.

[SwampDonkey]

I was also told he had a contract written up 5 years ago and the price of veneer was separated on the contract and he could see the price difference compared to grade logs.  I wanted to say thats great the price is differentiated on the contract doesnt mean that any of it is coming out of the woods. 

I think explaining the fact that veneer has to be graded on the landing, to determine if in fact it is veneer, only has to be said once. Aside from that, he wants it stipulated what he's getting by product (veneer, sawlogs, pulp) and if a landowner and yourself can't come to some arrangement in writing maybe the landowner has some pause for concern. I know I'd like to know what I'm getting by product, less all the double talk. Don't leave it up in the air. Best know your markets if your in the woods business. And the woodlot owner, should take a big interest in his markets to. Up here we are spoiled. Everyone knows the same information because we have marketing boards, and all the truckers report wood movement to them via chain of custody papers (load slips) besides the scale from the mills. No mill scale, no pay. The mills pay the marketing boards first (private wood), then pay flows from there. The source of that wood can be checked at any time. The load slip thing came into affect over a decade ago because of a lot of wood coming up missing.

[ehp]

buy 1 or a couple of those hunting trail cameras and put them looking at your log pile , anybody comes in to take stuff you got the picture of them