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hand-sharpening w/ file & guide

Started by tstex, January 06, 2010, 05:51:06 PM

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Al_Smith

First of all I'm not getting on anyones case .However there are certain things that everybody should know about chainsaws and one of the first is how to file a chain .

Oregon has made a file guide for decades that works well and cost a whole 8 bucks .

It comes with a file and the instructions with pictures even .Anyone that can read and follow directions should be able to use it properly .

An inexperianced person should be able to file a chain with that guide in 10 minutes on say a 20 inch loop of 3/8" chain .I can do it in 5 with or without the guide and with or without a compound angle .

If your going to operate a saw learn how to do the whole thing .

Al_Smith

--and another thing .It's best if every tooth is exactly the same length .However if you kiss the ground,hit a rock or generally damage a tooth you will find that being off 20 thou really has little effect on how the chain cuts .

Now having a 25 degree top plate on one,35 on another and 20 on the third will have a great effect .Really screw it up and it cuts in a circle  :D Neat trick,try it some time to impress your friends .

moonhill

I must be in the few category.   Even after grounding the chain I hand file with no guide.  I count the strokes of the file to keep the cutters about the same length, usually 5 strokes/cutter, 10-12 if it is in trouble.   Use a good file as pointed out.  I tap the file on the bar to clean the filings, I think it helps, on almost every cutter.

Tim 
This is a test, please stand by...

beenthere

Quote from: jteneyck on January 08, 2010, 03:53:38 PM
.........  And how long did it take you to learn?  And how many times can you sharpen it before several of the teeth are different lengths, or do you measure each with a set of calipers to make sure they are the same?  ...........

Not long to learn, and the last several chains never saw the chain grinder - - only my file. And they were cutting as good or better than new, when I retired them.

Giving others the impression that sharpening a chain as good or better than a grinder is just not correct, IMO, and is misleading to any newbie that is interested in chainsaw work. It is not rocket science.

There are reasons for taking chains in for grinder work, but that doesn't mean that most cannot do it easily themselves.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

WildDog

I don't like grinders each to his own, I use a plain file and raker guide. In the field I may touch up the chain up to half a dozen times in a day and the rakers once. I prefer to do it often and only 2 to 3 passes per tooth, I tend to rotate my file in the guide regularly. I am a scrooge "my son says thrill seeker" and get the most out of my chains....I am not perfect, towards the end, the teeth I sharpen from the off side are slightly shorter than the near side. Recently I have been cutting around the house and have had the luxury of my blacksmithing post vice at waste level that I can walk around. I have just about gone through my 1st chain and without getting the calipers out all the teeth look the same length.
If you start feeling "Blue" ...breath    JD 5510 86hp 4WD loader Lucas 827, Pair of Husky's 372xp, 261 & Stihl 029

downeast

Rocky and others are correct: HAND FILE. For the cost of a couple of store grindings you can buy any one of many high quality hand grinding guides.....or, do it freehand. It is not rocket science ( nor is rocket science rocket science  :P ). Hand file: in the field ( get a stump vise !), in the shop. The time and $$$$ spent setting up the grinder, buying the sized wheels to fit the chain, you could be doing by hand.

Learn to do it, it is not hard especially if I and Rocky have figured it out.  ;D . Most chains including Oregon and Stihl have "witness" lines on the top of the chain showing the correct angle of the file. Easy.

Remember, you don't need to get every chain exactly the same---1 RCH is enough.  :D

I'm partial to the PFERD system since it is the lazy way of also doing the rakers which most rarely bother with INCLUDING shop filers. PFERD ( no, I don't have a piece of the action  :( )
And, even rocking or dirting the chain, 10-15 strokes will get to back to work.

PFERD, better than silicone.  8)

Kevin

I'll use a grinder to bring back a rocked out chain, I keep a wet rag handy and lay it on the tooth to cool it but you still can't take too much at once.
The new chain came in for my 262 but I filed the old chain twice then ran it through the ginder when it wouldn't cut and it's still not quite where it should be.
I filed it again after using it the other day so we'll see how it goes next time.
For someone new to sharpening they might think they can't sharpen but sometimes the chain is too bad to bring back with even several strokes from a file.

jteneyck

You may get good results with only a file.  Hats off to those of you who can do it.  I too thought I was pretty good until I started milling lumber.  Any differences in your cutters will show up quickly.  What's acceptable when bucking logs no longer is when milling lumber, at least not for me.  So why not use the technology that's readily available especially when you are just starting out, which was the source of the original question?  The more accurately you can control the angles, and cutter length, the better the results will be.  File guides, grinders, etc. enable you to control angles consistently.  This is true regardless of cutter profile, but especially if you are using square cutter chain, and even more so if you are using square grind square chain.  Check out Madsen's website for more if you are interested.  My cutting got a lot more enjoyable once I could consistenly sharpen chains.  Whatever works for you is the way to go.  To say that a you have to learn how to sharpen with only a file misses the point.  It's the result,  not the route, that matters. 

Al_Smith

Here I go again rambling on that will fall on deaf ears but here goes it .

It's a natural thing to file more heavily on one side of a chain than the other.Left handed,right handed .Some people flip the saw over to compenstate for this .

Now,the old logger way .File right over the top leaning over the back of the saw towards the front .Awkward as all get out at first but works perfect--once you perfect it .Play on words .File left right left all the way around the thing. Easy as falling off the log you are sitting on .

Now on that milling chain,a standard round chisel will out cut a fancy milling chain any day of the week .You are going to plane it any way if it's to be for fine trim work etc .Even if not a chain is certainly smoother than a circle blade any way .Those things wrote the book on rough .

Kevin

Oregon RD was the best milling chain out of the box, I had poor results with any chain that was reground from stock chain.

jteneyck

Hi Al,  Not sure what you mean by "fancing milling chain" but I've tried several.  If you mean Granberg's ripping chain, I agree, it doesn't cut too well other than it does cut smoothly.  It also is rather a pain to sharpen.  At the moment I like Oregon RD ripping chain best.  It is full complement with a round chisel profile and has already been ground to 10 or 15 deg. (can't remember), which saves you from having to grind down a regular chain.  I've filed these by hand, which would please many of you I see, but filing 92 teeth after about every 100 ft gets tedious and pretty soon the cut quality started to get poor.  I tried using the simple file cards, but things didn't improve.  Guess I'm not up to the capability you guys have.  But after switching to Granberg's bar grinder I've been able to maintain consistent cut quality.  Not surprisingly, my crosscut chains run real well now, too.  The thing is so quick and easy to use I doubt I'll ever go back to filing except when I can't get near a 12V battery. 

tstex

Guys,

Thank you very much for all your input...

I am going to hit the woods tomorrow morning with both my c-saw and my files/guide.  After I burn some considerable hydrocarbons, I am going for the field-sharpening...I will post back and let you know how it goes.   :D

When I get the big chips again for a long time, well... 8)

Thanks again,
tstex

Al_Smith

Quote from: jteneyck on January 08, 2010, 08:55:23 PM
Hi Al,  Not sure what you mean by "fancing milling chain" but I've tried several.  If you mean Granberg's ripping chain, I agree, it doesn't cut too well other than it does cut smoothly.    

















 
I have copied them all ,Granberg ,Oregon .Nothing cuts as fast as just plain good old chisel .However nothing cuts as slow as cutting straight across grain .

If you can get say 30 degrees of slant going into a rip cut you wouldn't believe how much faster it is .Chainsaw milling is just about as slow as it gets considering more modern ways  of salvaging wood  that would normally end up in a wood stove .

It's an option and I commend anyone who takes the time to do it .However a more easy way of course is with a bandmill .That however has nothing to do with the most basic thing of a chainsaw which is the chain------as much as I ramble on . ;)

ickirby

Quote from: Kevin on January 08, 2010, 07:12:59 PM
For someone new to sharpening they might think they can't sharpen but sometimes the chain is too bad to bring back with even several strokes from a file.

That's an excellent point Kevin.  When I'm teaching people to sharpen I think starting with a chain that is wayyy over dull causes 90% of their difficulties.

As far as sharpening yourself versus taking it in to the shop.  I was at a new Husky dealer in Winnipeg the other day and they were charging $8 per loop to sharpen :o... and they had a huge backlog of chains to sharpen for people. 

At $8 per sharpening even if I was buying a new set of files and guides (~$15) everyday I'd still be ahead $25/day.

I totally agree with everyone else it is not a pain to learn at all.  You can be doing a decent enough job of it if you know someone who can coach you 3-4 times properly.  After that you can practice and practice... as soon as I do one absolutely perfectly I'll let you know.  I've only been at it part time for about a decade.   

bandmiller2

Filing is a rite of passage for being a wood cutter.Its surprising how many people don't know how to take the chain off the bar,they take the whole saw to be sharpened.Should be manditory to use a bucksaw for a year then you get a power saw and you'd be DanG sure to maintain it.Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

downeast

Quote from: bandmiller2 on January 09, 2010, 07:52:36 AM
Filing is a rite of passage for being a wood cutter.Its surprising how many people don't know how to take the chain off the bar,they take the whole saw to be sharpened.Should be manditory to use a bucksaw for a year then you get a power saw and you'd be DanG sure to maintain it.Frank C.

The chain comes off the bar ???   ::) ::)
What's a "bucksaw"  ???  :o :o

Rocky_J

But it you take the saw apart to get the chain off the bar, won't that void the warranty?  :P  :D

WildDog

I tried leaning over from the back of the saw as AL-Smith said, but its to hard on my back so I now put the file in the bech vise and holding the saw in both hands I just move the saw back and forth, its giving my forearms a workout but saves the back. ;) ;)
If you start feeling "Blue" ...breath    JD 5510 86hp 4WD loader Lucas 827, Pair of Husky's 372xp, 261 & Stihl 029

tstex

Gent's,

I am in the ranch house in the country with a very, very nice fire in the w-burning stove...I am burning some very hard aged-oak cut with my newly hand-sharpened saw...It Cut Great  8)

When I went to town, I took the boxes my chains came in, and this is how I ensure I am buying the right files...got 4 for the 029;  4 for the 023.

When I made my first cut, the chips were as big as the buck-teeth on this kid I knew in the 4th grade [he was a good kid, just had big front teeth :-\].

Again, thank you for all your help and assistance...it was a good day and I feel confident my sharpening skills will soon be keen, thanks to you all...

Be safe,
tstex

Rocky_J

Good deal.  8)
Remember, consistent repetition is key. Use the same stroke, the same pressure and the same number of swipes on each tooth.

wageslave

I am no expert  and used to think I was good at it freehand until  I started using a chainsaw more than a couple hours once in a great while. I went out and bought one of those clamp on file holders after that. That worked great till I needed to replace the chain. When I put the new chain on I noticed I wasn't getting as good of of a cut. Same exact chain and manufacturer. I sharpemed it twice the same way I did the old one and I still wasn't getting much better of a cut. I then tried to file down the the rakers, I believe thats what they are called, and wasn't getting anywhere. I finally took a die grinder to the top of the rakers , put a stait edge over four in a row, and measured the gap between the the strait edge and the top of the raker. Once I ground them down to the maximum gap spec. The chain cut great. Now I always check this gap once sharpening stops improving my cut. Note: after grinding the rakers I still made sure to round them like they were with the file after. And try to keep them all the same,other wise you get more vibration from the different depths of the cutters.

gemniii

Glad to read you were succesfull
Quote from: tstex on January 08, 2010, 08:16:58 AM<snip>
Here is what I am taking from this post:

* Use guide at this point to get the top angle, use full strokes [only one way from left to right] and perform the same number of strokes per link
* Keep file clean from oil, grease, dirt, i-filings and other debris
* Keep the file flat to the top and forget the 10degree angle
* Sharpen before every use and do not wait until the chips turn to dust
* Keep the bar level secure while using file
* File rakers to spec if/when required
* Take chain to shop every 3-4 uses to resurface/level all the links - toss old chains
* Be more mindfull of not dipping chain into the dirt
* Post here to get good feedback from great guys. :D

Thanks again and be safe,
tstex
I'm not certain what you mean about "Take chain to shop every 3-4 uses". 
I've been told they charge up to $10 a chain around here for sharpening.
/edit - On a 55 link chain that's almost $0.20/link  - I get mine done mail order from Baileys at $0.19/link - and I don't even send the chain in :)
As soon as my new chains start getting dull I'm trying to set a pattern.  I've presently got three saws with 4 variations of chain.
The first time I use my Christmas present  - A Grandberg File-n-joint per mfg settings
If it makes good chips, the second and third time file by hand, checking the rakers every other time,
Fourth time Grandberg
Repeat.

I've read many threads of people who file solely by hand, and good for them, but the Fil-n-Joint brings it back with some accuracy.

Also on my milling chain when I went to set the rakers on the 2nd and 4th sharpening per spec (Woodland Pro 30RP - 0.022") I didn't have to give more than one or two strokes and the chain cut like it was going thru concrete and still making fine sawdust.  I then tried a "progressive filing" (see instructions for Carlton Fil-o-plate at Baileys) dropped them down now to about .028 (took about 15 strokes per raker) and it's back to cutting almost by itself with chips.

Taking the chain to the shop to me is a no-go, with the time consumed it's not worth it to me to have a 92 link chain MAYBE sharpened when I can buy one from Baileys for under $20  (hope they bring back free shipping).

As far as sharpening after every use, depends on how much it was used, how fine the chips are compared to a new chain.  But I prefer to sharpen after every "significant" use.

/edit - Also when I do it freehand I hold the file such that it kind of "lifts up" against the cutter, not bear down into the gullet.

miking

I think that 10% lift does improve the cut. After flat filing for years and then switching to try it out I really think the chain cuts better with it.
Echo CS530, 600 and 680 chainsaws, SRM410U brushcutter, PB500 blower and PP265 power pruner. Also a Stihl 192c for the lil' stuff.

Al_Smith

Quote from: WildDog on January 09, 2010, 03:38:41 PM
I tried leaning over from the back of the saw as AL-Smith said, but its to hard on my back so I now put the file in the bech vise and holding the saw in both hands I just move the saw back and forth, its giving my forearms a workout but saves the back. ;) ;)
:D Right .

There is a secret to it .In the bush just cut maybe half a bar width into a log,round whatever and use the cut as kind of a stump vice for want of another term .Get the saw elevated enough it doesn't hurt your back .

That "over the top " is just one method of many .It works better for me because I can see the tooth angle better .

The first person I ever saw do that way was a tree trimmer that just stuck the saw out the window on a bucket truck and filed away .He got it sharp as a razor I'll give him that .

bandmiller2

A friend of mine in the tree service gets real close to the saw you'd swear he was mounting it but it comes out vicious sharp.Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

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