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New to forestry proper

Started by ex-Engineer Wannabe, August 31, 2007, 04:28:51 PM

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ex-Engineer Wannabe

Howdy!

My wife and I have been in the process of buying a parcel of managed forestland in western Mass for quite some time.  During this LOOONG process, we've run into one issue after the other -- the latest being a successful legal battle over zoning.  :)

As our ultimate goal is to build a timber frame home by employing our own "selected" timber and to, subsequently, continue managing the forest, I thought it would be a good idea to at least begin researching some of the basic forestry supplies we'll need.  Although this may seem like a thread for the sawyers and/or the timber framers among us, I thought I'd ask the forestry folks about the basic tools and such.

It would seem that a reliable device for measuring diameter and/or height would come in handy for someone taking care of forestland, as well as for someone wishing to mill their own timber.  As the current 10-year forestry plan is only three years old, we don't foresee having to hire a licensed forester right away.  In the meantime, I thought I'd ask the experts out there about what basic tools an amateur forestland owner/sawyer might need.

Although I grew up in the deep woods, we were not (by any means) professional foresters—or professional sawyers for that matter—so I apologize for the truly amateur questions.  ;)

Any thoughts are welcome ...

"Measure twice, cut once" -- Don't know who coined this one, but he was pretty wise.

DanG

Hi Bill!  You already have the best forestry tool...this here Forum right here!  Just take a long look at the thread GW started about clearing his pond site, and see how far he has come.  He has asked the questions, posted the pics, and then asked questions about the answers to the first questions.  He has also done the local legwork and found the best people to do his job, and they are working for him, as we type.  He's come an awful long way in a very short period.  I think you ought to follow his lead.  Post some specific questions about your woodlot and you're almost sure to get some expert input. ;)
"I don't feel like an old man.  I feel like a young man who has something wrong with him."  Dick Cavett
"Beat not thy sword into a plowshare, rather beat the sword of thine enemy into a plowshare."

WDH

Howdy ex-Engineer,

One of the most useful tools for me is a 75 foot loggers tape that has tension as you reel it out from a spring and the tensioned spring reels the tape back in.  The tape is attached to a hook on a belt that you strap around your waist.  The tape itself has a normal scale on one side and on the other side it is a diameter tape.  Easy to pull it out, and slap it around a tree to measure DBH.  Also, on the end of the tape there is a little nail that is used to stick the tape to the bark of a tree so that you can measure distance from the tree just by walking away to the desire point and reading the tape as you need to do in timber cruising.  If you cut any logs to saw, the tape is invaluable when you stick the nail in the butt of the log and walk down the log to establish the points you want to buck the tree into sawlogs.  To me it is an indispensable tool.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Texas Ranger

Probably a good book on forest management would be the best start.  Using Dan's tape and hypsometer (height measure's) of some nature will get you started on the trees.  All of he supplies you need are available from Forestry Suppliers and other equipment sales houses.  Buy a $25 prism and study the book, or study up on plot cruising, and your into management of the stand. 

Of course when you get to the logging end of it, you will have to study up on logging, milling, and grading timber.

Did I mention the first step is a good book?  We foresters, generally, keep our text books, and continue buying new books as they come out, just to keep up.  But the basics seldom change. 

Not wanting a licensed forester at this time could be a mistake.  A forester can cruise a tract, write the report, and you will know what you are buying, and any problems that  you may face.  Kinda like buying a car off the web, sometimes you need someone to look at the motor, listen to it run, and check the mile's.   
The Ranger, home of Texas Forestry

ex-Engineer Wannabe

WDH: Thanks very much!  That's exactly the kind of advice I was hoping for -- someone who's out there doin' the work and using those tools on a regular basis.  :)

DanG: As always, thanks a bunch for the encouraging words.  One of these days, when I can get back home, I'd like to come out for a visit.  :)

Ranger: I have met with the forester who wrote the forestry plans since the 80s, but he's ready to retire now.  He walked the forest with us and gave us more of an education in half a day than we could've gotten from months of trial and error [especially in regard to our own trees]. 

The trunks on most of the hardwoods, as well as the soft, are nice and straight and the crowns are nice and high.  I may not know much about silviculture proper, but I've cut enough SYP down south to know that he's been doin' something right.

My use of the word "amateur" was intended to show respect to the regulars on this board, like yourself.  As a much younger man, my Dad and I logged many a SYP from our own forestland.  He wasn't a forester, but he definitely knew which ones to take and which ones to leave standing.  Let's put it this way, the forester we met with up here wasn't the first person I've heard use the sage old adage, "It's not what you take, it's what you leave behind."  My old Dad, God rest him, used to say those exact words on a regular basis.

Thanks for the suggestions, Ranger.  My Dad used to use a logger's tape and a good ol' right triangle to judge standing timber.  I'm mostly trying to get a feel for any advancements that might've come along since the good old days -- from the folks out there doin' it now.  With a little educatin' and a bit of luck, I too might leave something good behind.  By the way, would you expound/elaborate a bit on how one can learn more about grading timber -- hard and soft? 

Thanks again to all ...  :)    

       
"Measure twice, cut once" -- Don't know who coined this one, but he was pretty wise.

DanG

Just for the benefit of those who don't know, ex-Engineer Wannabe was first known to us as B in NOLA.  That was short for, "Bill in New Orleans, La."  About a month after he found us, he and his family were literally floated out of their home by Katrina, and they came ashore in New England.  Long story short, you can't keep a good man down, and ol' Bill is making a comeback.  Let's give him all the support we can in making this new adventure a successful one.  I am totally amazed that he has reached the point where he is able to buy a chunk of land, and I'm confident that he will be a good steward of it.  I'm also sure that pennies will be scarce for a while, yet, so any suggestions that are inexpensive will probably be the most appreciated ones. :)
"I don't feel like an old man.  I feel like a young man who has something wrong with him."  Dick Cavett
"Beat not thy sword into a plowshare, rather beat the sword of thine enemy into a plowshare."

Dave Shepard

EEW, how far west? I am in the south west corner, minutes from NY and CT.


Dave
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

SwampDonkey

Since the subject of tree heights came up in this thread I thought I would make a post. ;D

Ex-Engineer said his dad used the right triangle method for determining height. This is known as 'Tangent of Angles'.

Here is a diagram for reference:



Lets work on level ground. ;D

I have a make believe hypsometer (right triangle, just for kicks  ;D ) and a logger's tape.






Note that when viewing the tree relative to the hypsometer the top and bottom should match with the tree. In the photo it looks like the triangle is up above the tree top and base. To my eye it wasn't. ;)



I anchored the tape with my handy dandy pulp hook.  ;D



Pull tight and level.  ;)


Read the tape to the centre of the tree.  ;)

Ok, that was easy enough.  ;D

So, we need to determine two angles: α1 and α2

How do we do that?

Well, we have a distance to the tree centre: 22.3 meters = D
and I know the base of the hypsometer was 1.8 meters above the ground (eye level, point E), and the ground was level to the tree, equivalent to distance AC . The angle  α1 was read from the hypsometer to be 25.5 ° ;)

So,

tan α2 = 1.8/22.3
                            = 0.0807
α2 = arctan (1.8/22.3)
                      = 4.6147 °

Tree height AB = D(tan α1 + tan α2)
                       = 22.3 (tan (25.5) + tan (4.6147))
                       = 22.3 (0.5577)
                       = 12.43 meters
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Tillaway

Basic tools: Compass ( Silva Ranger is standard), Clinometer, 75'Loggers Tape (decimal feet with diameter tape on opposite side of blade plus a refill or two), Horse shoe nails (for fixing to the end of the tape), dot grid, Aerial photos, plat map, soil map, assorted books, tree marking paint (aerosol works fine; don't let it freeze) flagging of various colors, weather proof field note books, mechanical pencils, permanent markers... that should get you started.
Making Tillamook Bay safe for bait; one salmon at a time.

ex-Engineer Wannabe

DanG, what a nice fella!  ;D

The land we've been working on buying is located in Russell, Dave.  After I consulted a map to locate Alford, I noticed that we have the same rig.  How do you like your CTD?  And here's a question I actually hope you won't understand -- have you ever replaced your IP?  The closest I've come to your town is Stockbridge.  It's been quite a few years, but I recall that it was a beautiful area.  We really should get out that way again.

I really appreciate all the informative posts.  SwampDonkey's, in particular, was really something.  It's been a while since I've applied trig for something like this, but I'm sure your post will have me calculating like Leibniz in no time.  ;)  Thanks for all the great photos as well.  :)

   
"Measure twice, cut once" -- Don't know who coined this one, but he was pretty wise.

rebocardo

> In the meantime, I thought I'd ask the experts out there about what basic tools
> an amateur forestland owner/sawyer might need.

In Massachusetts, a lawyer on retainer is #1  :D   

full sized 4x4 truck with a good solid bumper of steel tubing, 3/16-1/4 will do. Not a factory step and tow. Headache rack is a must.

A good off road trailer (convert a car trailer) or log arch to move the logs to your mill. I would not drag logs a long distance with a pickup truck. Sooner or later you will snag a stump and break a cable at a minimum. Plus, you load the log with dirt and stones and bark (remove it) other trees doing it.

chainsaw gloves
chainsaw helmet with visor and muffs
chainsaw chaps
wedges of all sorts
8-12 pound sledge

something to roll logs (I like the Logrite Peavey a lot - I used a six foot 1" thick crow bar for a long time)

300 foot tape measure
compass
high lift jack and some chain  15-20 feet.

first aid kit and something to remove ticks. Where you are, that deer tick disease is a real hazard.

If cutting lumber, a logger's tape like mentioned is nice. I used a 30 foot tape measure though and still do.

You will find most trees in MA never reach much over 100 feet, dpending on area, more like 70-80 feet. So, just measure out a 100 feet and you are good to go when dropping them.

optional - clinometer for tree height.  I got by for years with a plastic triangle (or imagining one) and walking back 100 feet to judge height. After your first couple of dozen trees, you can judge height fairly accurately just by looking at them.

optional - ATV 4x4


I guess you would start with what trees and what the land is like to determine how heavy duty your log moving stuff needs to be. There is a big difference between a 20 inch pine and a 30 inch oak when you need to move the log, as an example, in weight.

If I were you, I would look at setting up a small firewood business and a log splitter. Seasoned split firewood in MA can sell for $250 a cord. That can pay for a lot of tools. If selling firewood, a dump trailer is almost a must.

ex-Engineer Wannabe

If you give my original post in this thread another read, you'll see that your point about retaining legal counsel is well taken, rebocardo.  :)

I've got all the truck I'll ever need, but your point about the HD bumber is very interesting.  I've felled more than my share of trees in the past, so I've got all the chainsaw stuff on hand.  Would you please elaborate on the high lift jack you mentioned in your post?

My Dad used to calculate tree height by first sighting with a right triangle and a small level, but I'm glad to read that there may be something a bit more efficient for this purpose.  If you wouldn't mind very much, would you explain how a clinometer is used? 

Your thoughts on selling firewood here are very interesting as well.  Thanks very much for the informative post ... :)
"Measure twice, cut once" -- Don't know who coined this one, but he was pretty wise.

Reddog


ex-Engineer Wannabe

Thanks, Red.  Really like your hat, but it looks like you could use a shave.  :D

Is All-Cast the name of the manufacturer?

Have a great one ...
"Measure twice, cut once" -- Don't know who coined this one, but he was pretty wise.

Reddog

The company is Hi-lift.

A friend of mine retired from the Navy there. Sent me the hat. And yes I can usally use a shave.   ;):D

ex-Engineer Wannabe

Shaven or unshaven, I really appreciate the information, my friend.

Have a great evening,  ;D
Bill
"Measure twice, cut once" -- Don't know who coined this one, but he was pretty wise.

thecfarm

I have one of those Hi-Lift jacks and really like it.I have not used it much,but when I do I'm glad I have it.My stepson bought it for me.He bought me the 60 inch one.It's not all that much more for one this size.You can also use it for a winch too.Would be slow since you can only go the lenght of the jack,but if that is all that you had it would do the job.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

SwampDonkey

Make sure you have a hub cap wrench. You'll need it when letting your jack down. The pin and spring mechanism never seems to work right. It's alright jacking up, but it jams when ya go down.  ::) We call them farm jacks here.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

ex-Engineer Wannabe

Thanks, SwampDonkey.  Will you explain what you mean by a hub cap wrench?  I'm assuming that you're talking about the old-style jack handles -- for the old bumper jacks (aka, tire irons) -- but I'm not positive about that.
"Measure twice, cut once" -- Don't know who coined this one, but he was pretty wise.

Tom


Those pins and springs on the jack walk from hole to hole and require a liberal amount of thin grease or heavy oil to work smoothly.  It is also advisable to keep your head from above the handle.  I've seen the pins slip and the handle 'bout take off a head.

Still, it's a great tool and can be used to pull or push.  It's handy to get you unstuck as a jack, to pull you from a hole as a winch or to just move the hitch of a big trailer over to get it aligned.  Lots of folks I know keep two in the back of the truck.

SwampDonkey

Yes, we call'm tire irons to I guess. All I ever used them for was to remove a hub cab. And yes, watch your chin as Tom suggests.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

ex-Engineer Wannabe

Great safety advice, fellas. :)  I'd really like to see one of these jacks now ... I think I'll do some research right now.
"Measure twice, cut once" -- Don't know who coined this one, but he was pretty wise.

Mooseherder

 We call them Farm Jacks also. Used them to lift the camp when we were putting down some new Cedar Ties (courtesy of Bow Saw, painted in black ).  We had put some steel plate down for the jack bottom foot for stability. The bottom sill of the camp almost wanted to bust loose but we blocked up and repositioned. A couple of the pumps took two men to get to the next lift click. Worked really well but I still don't trust them. A feller needs to watch his noggin around them.

Furby


thecfarm

I would be careful with where I bought it from.I've seen some sell for $40 new.This is not a good time to try to save a $40.I think a 60 inch one is around $80 now.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Sprucegum

My wife drug me to a yard sale last spring. I whined about it all the way there - then I found a jack-all for $10.00 and bragged about it all the way home  ;D  ;D

A little WD-40 or similar lube keeps them working most of the time.

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