Boxed heart timbers, again.

[Dave Shepard]

I have a large oak to saw up, 30" small end by 10', well, it's large if you are by yourself. I want to cut it into 6x7's for floor joists, but am worried about warpage if it is not boxed heart. We are going to be getting quite a few larger oaks in for a couple of frames that I am going to be cutting and I don't want to box the heart on a bunch of two foot logs and be left with a mountain of 4/4 boards that all I can do is make stickers out of. Does anybody have any experience with cutting timbers out of these larger logs? Any help would be appreciated. I wish we had  a way of marketing oak, the logs I was cutting today were full of absolutely clear scrumptious boards. The boards didn't move at all when I was cutting them, not like some ash I cut the other day that just about jumped out the door as I was trying to cut it. I cut them all up into stickers, and take the center for a timber, which is the goal of cutting the oak in the first place. Thanks.


Dave

[logman]

I think it's a crap shoot either way.  I cut probably 12 to 15 mbf of oak
for a timber frame barn and even perfectly boxed heart timbers bowed.
I started out rejecting bowed ones but soon discovered I had to use
them if I ever wanted to get done.  I ended up buying a few of the
longer (26') timbers and 2 of them looked like bananas.  I used them
too after clamping them to a straight timber and pulling them straight
in order to lay them out.  After installing them I pulled them straight again
with a comealong and fastened them down. 
I had lots of 1" stuff too since I would take a slice, turn ,slice,turn,etc.
I just got rid of all of it , so don't give up on selling it.  I find that just the way
you word ads will get people to call, like calling it 1x6 fence boards  instead
of just rough cut lumber. 

[Dave Shepard]

Thanks logman, is red oak desirable for fence boards? I could certainly slice the side boards into that if need be. I just worry about having a lot of time into handling, stickering and storing hardwoods. We only cut hardwood on a custom order basis, in this case the oak is being used for the sawmill owners addition, which I will be cutting the joinery on later this winter. I just hate to see all that clear going to waste when I see the prices of hardwood at Home Cheapo. On the flip side, I also realize the value added work required to get the finished product, which is why we stick to pine. There is always someone to buy pine, if only I could get them to tail it into their pickup for me. ;)


Dave

[leweee]

Dave.... if they are large logs, I would cut some with parallel grain. ;D
           you could cut them a little oversize & true them up when they dry a little or before you use them....if you don't want all those boards & can stand to handle them again : Boxed heart usually checks to the center on one face at least when it dries.(not making it pretty or square) :P




PS  take the beams with parallel grain off the clear faces.(BIG Limbs & Knots won't make great beams) ;D

[Max sawdust]

Seems like good advice so far. 
In My Opinion nothing wrong with free of heart smaller timbers for braces and girts if it is a good quality tree to begin with and if you stay parallel to the grain as mentioned.  In my experience it is a crap shoot, depends alot on how the tree grew.  Doubles  and triples, leaner's will bow like a banana.  (Helps when you fell your own trees ;D) Good quality second growth single trunk trees, if you stay parallel to the grain whether free of heart or boxed heart seem to stay straight as an arrow for me at least (up to 16' is my experience.)

I am in the process of milling Red Oak for a small 10x12 TF enclosed porch.  Lots of extra 8/4, 6/4, 4/4  and brace material too ;)  If you have have the tools to process the lumber you could use it for flooring or trim in the structure you are building.

30" small end should produce some nice free of heart materials, some nice Q/sawn stuff too ;)  Nothing like a Quartersawn ray flake on a brace, now that is pretty ;D
max

[Jim_Rogers]

Dave:
There is lots of info here on the FF about "boxed heart" beams.

Such as:
Click here for link to story about boxed heart beams

Jim Rogers.....

[Dave Shepard]

Thanks Jim, some good information there. The decision was made to saw the big oak into 6x7's for floor joists and see what happens. The log is a butt log and has a lot of clear wood so far, so maybe we'll get lucky. At least floor joists are easy to make, so if we lose one or two I'll just cut more. I am building timber racks out of I-beams that will be leveled up on concrete blocks. That way I will have an ideal place to make the stacks on. All of the timbers are coming from the mill to my house where I will cut the joinery this winter. I will have to store the timbers until next spring, when either the house will be raised or the owner of the frame will have to store it, and take his chances on degrade. I would really like to see an oak frame go up ASAP, and preferably have  a little time to season before the central heat starts to destroy the beams.


Dave

[Jim_Rogers]

I'm sure you know, but don't let any good oak beams touch any steel. The steel stain will be a mark you'll soon regret.

Jim Rogers

[Dave Shepard]

Thanks for the reminder Jim. I have been thinking of how to handle them with the pallet forks and settled on getting some of that 1/4" thick foam packing sheets and taping it around the forks. I have a bunch of dunnage sawn out to stack the timbers on so I should be ok once its on the pile.


Dave

[Tom]

Jim,
I know what you are talking about with the steel staining oak.

In some instances it's pretty neat.  I've seen rusty water rubbed into oak to form the black iron tannate stain and then finished with a poly finish to make beautiful floors or cabinets.

It is a black or blue black.   It has no place were it isn't wanted, for sure.  It can be used to enhance the effects of the grain of the wood for someone who is willing to experiment.

[Max sawdust]

In some instances it's pretty neat.  I've seen rusty water rubbed into oak to form the black iron tannate stain and then finished with a poly finish to make beautiful floors or cabinets.
It can be used to enhance the effects of the grain of the wood for someone who is willing to experiment.

Sorry to "steel" the thread :D  But what Tom says interest me.  I have been considering trying staining Red Oak with iron to see the effect.  Faux ebony??
max
If any one has any pics of a finished project with "blue stained" oak I sure would appreciate the pics.
Max

[Don P]

I can't help you on iron staining the oak. We've used oxalic acid ( in some deck brightners) to help remove the stains. "Fuming" was another process in the Arts and Crafts era. I think they used ammonia  ???

[Dave Shepard]

Well, I got it sawn out today. I think I did alright considering my lack of experience. I opened up the first face, about 24" wide, and then I flipped it 180 so the flat was down. I then sawed 4/4 boards down to 14.125". Then I flipped it 90 and sawed a few boards off down to where there was no wane. I then flipped it 180 again and sawed 4/4 until I was at 18.250" and then I cut it into 6" slabs, tipped the whole stack over and split them at 7". Voila! Six floor joists.

At first I didn't think I was going to make it through this log. I couldn't get a straight cut even with a new blade. There was all kinds of reaction wood going on opening this thing up and I was getting real nervous. I kept humming that old sawyers tune "I fought the log, and the log won" in my head. Then, like an early christmas gift, all the malarkey stopped and I sawed out the joists as if they were styrofoam. I don't know how much they are going to move when they dry, but they didn't move at all when I was cutting them. 8) The sad thing is some of these floor joists are q-sawn, with some awesome flecking, I was thinking of setting them back on the mill and slicing them into boards, but I am still leary about the wood moving around a lot.


Dave

[ironstumper]

Bump to top

[Dave Shepard]

Those joists sat out in the weather uncovered until last november, didn't move a bit. Don't know what they got used for in the end.


Dave

[bandmiller2]

Dave ,keeping oak straight is like shoveling sand agenst the tide.Two things I have done boath require time 1.cut the logs and let em sit they will find their rest about the time the bark falls off 2.cut em good oversize let them sit and remill to size.Or just cut and use ,DanG the bend.Frank C.

[solidwoods]

Qtr sawn white oak 8"-12" wide sells for what?
jim

[SwampDonkey]

Well boxed heart is the most unstable part of the log. All that juvenile wood just waiting to pull and twist apart.  :D