iDRY Vacuum Kilns

Sponsors:

Over-management for sugar maple

Started by wisconsitom, January 22, 2019, 12:30:41 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

barbender

Yeah, planting for what's selling now could be 40-80 years behind the curve in northern climes. 
Too many irons in the fire

hacknchop

I agree red oak was the wood of choice 25 yrs ago hard mpl  was just making a comeback but yellow birch has retained its value, in this neck of the woods there are a few private pine plantations mostly red pine , but we have been as private land owners practicing sustainable harvest in hardwood forests including some who operate successfull maple products retail and bulk.
Often wrong never indoubt

Otis1

I think this is my first post here..

A bit of background for context; I am a private consulting forester in Wisconsin, I live near Wausau, and have worked on private and public land all over the state.  I agree with all of the previous comments as to why there is so much sugar maple.  I disagree that it is currently and intentionally being excessively managed for.

Whenever I mark a timber sale on the Forest Service or DNR land the prescription usually states to favor oak, yellow birch, and basswood and discriminate against sugar maple. Unfortunately ash has become high risk, but maybe this cold weather will kill some of those bugs. So many stands in northern Wisconsin have tons of suppressed 6" sugar maple. The prescriptions also generally call for canopy gaps every 2-3 acres in order to encourage other species, I try to place them near oak and yellow birch.

The same prescriptions state not to cut hemlock or white pine unless it is a safety concern or for a skid trail. When I mark private sales; I try to keep the big hemlock and white pine they are both beautiful trees. One additional note is that even planting other species isn't really guaranteed around here, there are some places in the state that you can't even plant red pine without the deer eating it.


*edit third post. I really only post online after a few beers

wisconsitom

Otis, while you did state  that you disagree with the premise that sugar maple is being over-selected for...in the present, I think the stands I'm looking at..and that we're all looking at...are the products of past management decisions, not necessarily decisions being made today.  I think that was what i was trying to get at.

  At any rate, I applaud your conscientious approach to marking on public lands.  It sounds perfect.  Can you tell us....does your timber marking differ greatly when done for private landowners?  Is "the customer always right"?

Thanks,
tom
Ask me about hybrid larch!

petefrom bearswamp

NY has approximately 3 million acres in the forest preserve mainly in the-Adirondacks.
No management whatsoever.
The powers that be call it forever wild, we forestry types used to call it forever rotten.
climax hardwood forest on the appropriate sites has been reached on nearly all of the state land, Beech Birch and Maple with Hemlock and White pine and a few incidental species.
The beech is collapsing in most areas leaving sprouts and the other species including lots of monster trees.
My northern hardwood woodlot here in central NY is mainly Hard maple and Cherry as I harvested all but about hundred Ash back in 2008-9  in dread of the EAB.
I am now in the twilight of my existence but my son, also a trained forester, retired from state service, will inherit management of this parcel.
Foresters and woodlot owners should live as long as Methuselah to see the results of their labors.
Kubota 8540 tractor, FEL bucket and forks, Farmi winch
Kubota 900 RTV
Polaris 570 Sportsman ATV
3 Huskies 1 gas Echo 1 cordless Echo vintage Homelite super xl12
57 acres of woodland

Otis1

In response to Tom's question about private landowners. 

I find that 99% of the landowners that I work with are more interested in management for wildlife and aesthetics over profit.  Most landowner's would rather have good acorn producing oak every year rather than a one time paycheck. Occasionally I get a landowner that is just looking at $$, in those cases we have a serious conversation about what the long term outcomes will be. A good conversation about the silvicultural characteristics of their trees goes a long way in explaining why you have prescribed / marked the trees the way you did.

In most of Wisconsin hunting land is the primary objective, so creating canopy gaps and encouraging new trees to grow is easy to get landowner's on board with. If even just for deer browse. I have found that most landowners are relieved when you tell them that their few scattered 100-200 year old white pine, red pine, or hemlock don't have to be cut. At the same time, some landowners may decide to get the value of those trees before it's laying on the ground from a wind storm. 

I guess the short answer to your question is that the landowner owns the land, I don't.  My job is to help them manage for their goals/ objectives within the bounds of what is silviculturally acceptable.

Completely unrelated, but I'm gonna throw this out there. The WDNR has an excellent Silviculture Handbook on their website. It has descriptions of pretty much every type of harvest, TSI, and cover types. It's a great reference. Just search for it on their homepage. 

 


Log-it-up

Hey all
 Regarding the post from maple flats I was talking to a forester In my area and the did a big beech cut and where thining them out , I asked how they got them from growing back he said they cut the stump 2' high they sprout then die off might be worth trying

Southside

Oddly enough I learned the other day that the demise of the passenger pigeon actually played a very large role in the transition away from oak and into the northern maple forest we see today.  Had to do with their migratory habits and the impact billions of traveling birds would have on a forested area when it came to breaking branches and smothering the ground with droppings.  

Funny how often modern science forgets recent history and the impact it has.   
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

mike_belben

Maybe modern science is a little too preoccupied with climate alarmism.  My kids watch reading rainbow and other throwback TV from my day on wifi.  What a different world it was. 
Praise The Lord

nativewolf

Quote from: mike_belben on February 19, 2019, 06:51:38 AM
Maybe modern science is a little too preoccupied with climate alarmism.  My kids watch reading rainbow and other throwback TV from my day on wifi.  What a different world it was.
Well I think the Passenger Pigeon example just shows how fragile/dynamic nature is.  Humans can easily easily change huge ecosystems be it from killing all the passenger pigeons to introducing the EAB or Chestnut Blight.  To think that we can't change the climate just as easily is just...bizarre to me.   We didn't destroy the earth by killing the Chestnut but man..that was a kick in the nuts (pun intended) for the eastern hardwood forest.  I think more effort should be given to the question: "ok, so what now".  Frankly if it is going to happen we have probably already screwed the pooch and our best efforts to contain might not be enough.  So what do we do?  Will this mean Sugar Maple moves 200 miles north?  Does this mean I should cut my best Northern Red Oak and plant YP?  Will walnut still do well here?  Etc etc.  So many many questions I have and there are NO answers.  I would not mind some help from state agencies on this question.  "If so then what now"
Liking Walnut

wisconsitom

Nativewolf, there are actual documents out now, stating exactly what you seek.  I'd have to dig around and find the reference, but a wetlands conference I was at last year featured a listing of "climate change trees" that went something like this;  So for say Wisconsin, where I am....the chart might indicate paper birch...or white-cedar...is going to struggle in the warming that's happening...and that perhaps those sites might be occupied by things like bitternut hickory, swamp-white oak, and other more warm-tolerant species.  It's much more detailed than I can outline here, but such does exist.

The writing is on the wall.  And it ain't pretty.

tom
Ask me about hybrid larch!

Southside

Ugg... And the cedar and black spruce forests I played in growing up were all barren and under a mile of ice in the not too distant past, but the same state agencies seem to want to ignore that little detail. 
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

TKehl

The shifting dryline is what has my attention.  We had two bad drought years this decade that already had me thinking.  The dryline study added some urgency.  (Hard to say that about long term planning.)   ;D

As such over the next five years we have plans to increase water infiltration into the soil as well as add additional water retention for our pastures as well as increase our hay reserve.
In the long run, you make your own luck – good, bad, or indifferent. Loretta Lynn

wisconsitom

I've seen that shifting dryline too, TKehl, and it's got me concerned as well.  Can't have that creeping up on us....but we might!

Sometimes I think...and this is really unscientific thought going on here...that somehow, the western Great Lakes will stay a bit cooler and wetter as things heat up over the plains.  My only reason for this is watching one storm system after another kind of get lost up in N. Minnesota or just above Lake Superior and just kind of rotate around up over us and our area.  Could be sheer BS on my part.  Wishful thinking perhaps.  My hope would be that places like Northern Wisconsin would keep their "northern" character.



tom
Ask me about hybrid larch!

Southside

Things are, and always have been, in a state of flux, nothing we can do about that in the big picture.  Opinion boils down to sample size in so many cases.  If a scientist were to arrive here in southern Virginia a year ago and study the climate for a full year, with no prior knowledge, they would arrive at the conclusion that it rains here 5 out of 7 days all year long, the red clay mud serves as a barrier to channel water down to streams, and pine trees grow in swamps.  All of which is atypical, at least in terms of known history.  What do we have a few hundred out of 4+ billion years worth of observed climate data, while the rest is hypothetical conclusion?  Pretty small sample size to draw such conclusive results from.   
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

wisconsitom

Pollen samples go back millions of years and are reliable indicators of climate characteristics.  Nor would any climate scientist make such obvious mistakes as you outline in your post, Southside.  We-by which I mean mankind-actually do have extensive climate records.  Not hundreds of year.  Millions of years.

Nor does the obvious fact that things change all the time somehow disprove the impact of what's going on now.

tom
Ask me about hybrid larch!

TKehl

Exactly.  I have no desire to argue cause of change, just acknowledge that change happens and watch trends.
 
As such I'm trying to set our family farm (immovable object) to be as successful as possible within the range I see as possible.  For me, I expect the range of the next 50 years to be between the past 50 year average to something warmer and drier on average, (but also not ignoring that cooler and wetter isn't impossible).  It also seems like weather patterns are "sitting" in one place longer, backed up by studies showing a weakening jet stream.  (Long term or short term? ???) So we may have similar amounts of rain in the year, but have them be in larger events with a lot of runoff followed by longer dry periods. 
 
I don't ever expect to be on the west side of the dry line, but there is less rainfall in eastern KS and I could see that moving, accordion like, toward our farm.
 
Beyond water, I'm also looking at tree species to focus on, though changes there for my location are minimal thankfully.  It seems the species that may struggle most are ones I'm already culling heavily.  Though if planting new walnut, I may reconsider marginal sites and only plant on good ones.  I'm also strongly considering planting Chestnuts for nut production on 5-50 acres.
 
My goal is to set the farm up to thrive in the face of change, or if nothing changes at all.  ;)  :)  8)
In the long run, you make your own luck – good, bad, or indifferent. Loretta Lynn

wisconsitom

TKehl, then in that sense, you and I are indeed on the same page.  Also like you, my intent is to set things up at my property so as to allow for the best outcome possible for the near- to mid-term.  After that, I simply can't track anything.  I suppose one way to look at it would be to say..."I'd like my grand-kids to have something good to work with up there"....or words like that.  Beyond 2 or 3 generations....who knows?

And in that regard, on my job I am responsible for something called "native restoration", whereby we in the Stormwater utility seek to install and enhance native vegetation communities around these relatively numerous and vast sites.  And in that capacity I have been given the task of designing a forest planting to take place at a new pond we start digging this summer.  Because the site is quite flat, wet-mesic, and because our soils here are circum-neutral due to limestone bedrock, and because we were originally very much in the belt that supported good white-cedar growth, I am using that species as the centerpiece of a forest community planting that will also feature early and mid-succession species.  Yet if I am completely honest....let's see...white-cedar can live 1000 years.....should I be doing this?  Even I have to admit, I'm not using the best science available in designing this planting.  Heck, I've got paper birch in there, and that too is on the list of species expected to have tough times here in the not-too-distant future.  1000 years is way too long to truly expect something to work out like that.  Of course, not one person has any kind of expectation like that, not because they are knowledgeable, but instead, because they know nothing about trees and forests and wouldn't even know what questions to ask!

I will write a management plan for my successor(s).  In that plan, I will outline changes that may occur, species that could be interplanted at a later date, and general succession ideas that could be followed.  The good news there is that there is not one correct path for the future....but many possible ways to go.  Further, the individual who is expected to take over for me when I retire in 2.18 years (lol)..is a capable and highly-intelligent guy.  He'll do a great job when I'm done here.

Thanks,
tom
 
PS...for a "native restoration" guy, I'm way outside the mold.  I actually believe that-for just one example, and there are many more-the hybrid larch that I and some others are touting could play a part in healing the landscape across the north.  Low-value forests could be cleared, the fast-growing larch planted in alternating fashion with whatever desirable species or group of species one deems fit...and then the lightly-shading larch will grow much faster, yield a usable product, and then be cut at about 20 years of age and out of the way for your oaks or whatever.  Tip of the iceberg.....I could go on and on......and on!  We can shape the world of the future.....not just in negative ways....but actually for the better!

Thanks,
tom
Ask me about hybrid larch!

Klunker

I wouldn't get too shook up over global warming.
Global cooling would be much worse.
Maunder minimum is a real possibility.

Is a Mini Ice Age Coming? 'Maunder Minimum' Spurs Controversy

Of course its going to be poo poo'd as there is no money in carbon offsets etc etc if the sun is at blame and there is nothing that can be done.

TKehl

I am familiar with studies about the solar cycle and the Maunder Minimum.  It is worth considering and is a factor in my decisions.  Change happens (large volcanic eruptions etc.) especially over long timeframes and Earth has mechanisms to get back to equilibrium as long as the pendulum doesn't swing too far.  I have no interest arguing about cause, but a lot of interest in avoiding negative impacts of change.   ;D  
 
I am a physicist that likes to farm, and only read a bit about climate science.  Enough to have opinions on why, but not enough to feel confident taking a position beyond my plans for the farm.  Even so, I'm only planning for the next hundred or so years on our farm is all.  😉  Around one generation of timber.  
 
Our farm has been in the family since 1911 and has required adapting several times.  I would go broke breeding horses and farming with mules like great and double great grandpa (even they supplemented with butchering on the side.)  I would go broke trying to run a small scale dairy like my grandpa.  I would go broke (and almost did) running pigs on dirt like dad.  All those things made a living for them for years, but the economic environment has changed.  The farm is profitable, but not at full time income levels yet.  Our mix involves beef cattle, meat goats, timber, sawmill, crafts, and a little heavy equipment work.  I have no idea what my kids or grandkids economic environment will be if they choose to stay on the farm, but I bet there will be changes.   ;)
In the long run, you make your own luck – good, bad, or indifferent. Loretta Lynn

Klunker

I would bet on colder and drier.

Past history dictates that.

The Sun is going to sleep last grand solar minimum 400 years ago(3) - YouTube

If global warming is a very real possibility how come all the believers (Al Gore for one) are burning fossil fuels like there is no tomorrow? They always want the Gov. to solve the problem with taxes and prohibitions that reduce the standard of living for the "little guys" while they fly around on private jets.

In any way trying to guess what the climate will be like in 10, 20 or 30 years is folly. There is no way of knowing. I'll continue planting what has grown in my area for the last several centuries.

If I had a choice between warmer or colder I'll take warmer, much easier to survive a warmer climate rather than a colder one.





Thank You Sponsors!