Had a guy that wanted to sell me 1500 BF of walnut that had been sawn a couple of years ago and air dried. The problem was that the sawyer sawed the boards 1" thick. To add to that, it was sawn poorly, with a lot of the boards too thick on the ends and not thick enough in the middle. It was clear that the sawyer did not pay much attention to quality and consistency, did not manage stress in the cant well, and was probably in Slam Bam, Cut-em Quick, and Clear Out mode. Just Saws Em Fast and Leaves Em Fast.
Many of the boards were only about 3/4" to 7/8" thick in the middle, rough sawn. None of these boards will clean up to 3/4" thick. Hardwood is usually sawn at 1 1/8" thick, 1/8" over. That 1/8" makes a huge difference once you begin to actually USE the lumber.
So, today, I visited another operation that had a huge stash of walnut lumber. I could see right away that some of the boards that had been planed did not clean up all the way. Then I noticed that it was sawn at 1" thick. For furniture grade hardwood, 1" is not thick enough, especially for high quality hardwood lumber. When quartersawing, you might need to add another 1/16" to the thickness since quartersawn lumber shrinks about twice as much in thickness as flatsawn lumber.
I have planed tens of thousands of BF of furniture grade hardwood lumber. 1" thick rough is too thin. By the time you plane the board and flatten it out on the jointer to get a perfectly flat board, like one you would use in a table top, there is not enough meat on the bone.
Don't Saw Too Thin when sawing furniture grade hardwood lumber unless you are a Saws Em Fast, Leaves Em Fast, Never to Return type of Sawyer.
Sorry for the Rant :).
I can SEE what you are sayin .
"When quartersawing, you might need to add another 1/16" to the thickness since quartersawn lumber shrinks about twice as much in thickness as flatsawn lumber."
Hi Danny,
Since quartersawing will not cup, are you saying that you would add 1/16" to the 1 1/8" or to 1".
It is not unusual for Woodworkers that I saw for to specify 1 3/16" or 1¼". The beauty of having some kind of Setworks is to be able to easily meet customer's dimension requests.
Quote from: Glenn1 on September 26, 2016, 10:35:47 PM
"When quartersawing, you might need to add another 1/16" to the thickness since quartersawn lumber shrinks about twice as much in thickness as flatsawn lumber."
Hi Danny,
Since quartersawing will not cup, are you saying that you would add 1/16" to the 1 1/8" or to 1".
I mill hardwood to 1 1/8" flat sawn and 1 3/16 QSawn.
Both will then easily skip plane to 15/16" cleaning up 100 percent of one side, better than 90% of the other.
Ok, I'm happy to listen to your rant. I hope you got it off your chest and you feel better. :'( Now the question, did you buy it? ;D
Listening to the rant of someone who knows what they are talking about and has the right goal is better than listening to the rant of someone trying to justify shoddy workmanship.
Glenn,
I meant adding the 1/16' to the 1 1/8" to get to 1 3/16" like YellowHammer said.
Flatsawn lumber will shrink from 8 to 12%. Quartersawn lumber about 1/2 that . So when you quartersaw, the thickness portion of the board is the flatsawn part, and the board will shrink 8 - 12% in thickness. For flatsawn lumber, the thickness portion of the board has the quartersawn grain orientation, and it shrinks only 4 - 6% in thickness. That is why there is a need to quartersaw lumber a little thicker than flatsawn lumber.
I like to hear a good rant every now and again, and its funny how different folks work. I have sawn for a few cabinet, furniture builders, and for the 1" stock, they all wanted it 1"
I will add this, they all mentioned it was only because of the flat consistency coming off the mill.
I am doing a flooring job for a customer and his lumber was milled at 1" thick. He had sticker
it only in 3 places on a 8' length. So there was a lot of waste and did not make much flooring.
I all ways mill to 1 1/8 or 1 1/4" to have some room to skip plane to 15/16 for the customer.
He said he bought some Walnut and i hope he looked at it as i showed him what he needs to
make his flooring and not have to much waste. Will see when he brings it to me this week end.
Sawwood
I never complain if asked to cut thicker, means fewer cuts for a given volume after all :laugh:
Quote from: WDH on September 27, 2016, 07:43:54 AM
Glenn,
I meant adding the 1/16' to the 1 1/8" to get to 1 3/16" like YellowHammer said.
Flatsawn lumber will shrink from 8 to 12%. Quartersawn lumber about 1/2 that . So when you quartersaw, the thickness portion of the board is the flatsawn part, and the board will shrink 8 - 12% in thickness. For flatsawn lumber, the thickness portion of the board has the quartersawn grain orientation, and it shrinks only 4 - 6% in thickness. That is why there is a need to quartersaw lumber a little thicker than flatsawn lumber.
Thanks for the explanation. I have been lucky. We QS white oak to an inch and planed 1/16 off each side. They are nice and clean at 7/8". Next time, I will go a little thicker.
Sure glad that QS does not cup!
For ¾ finished, allowing for 8% shrinkage or less, we saw at 1".
Shrinkage out to 12% we saw at 1 3/64's ( metric guage is 26.5).
Hit and miss caused by blade wander is far less with a well tuned circle saw. Seems to me that any kerf saving you thin band guys get you give away to cutting thicker to allow for wavy cuts, and that at the end of the day in the " real world" of sawing there isn't that much yield difference either way: thin band kerf + oversaw = circle kerf.
I saw just over 1", about 1 1/32 and maybe 3 board out of a 100 won't clean up at 13/16. At 1 - 1/8 I'd be wasting 1 in 10 boards plus way more planeing to get to 13/16. Steve
The whole deal on this end, even from what I've heard from the flooring folks, most cases a lighter cut is better, but not always, but for sure for the small scale builder, if the lumber is flat, and consistent, it makes for fewer passes through the planer. Time is the factor.
Quote from: WDH on September 26, 2016, 09:58:03 PM
............. and was probably in Slam Bam, Cut-em Quick, and Clear Out mode. Just Saws Em Fast and Leaves Em Fast.
I know somebody like this. :D :D :D
Quote from: longtime lurker on September 27, 2016, 04:22:56 PM
For ¾ finished, allowing for 8% shrinkage or less, we saw at 1".
Shrinkage out to 12% we saw at 1 3/64's ( metric guage is 26.5).
Hit and miss caused by blade wander is far less with a well tuned circle saw. Seems to me that any kerf saving you thin band guys get you give away to cutting thicker to allow for wavy cuts, and that at the end of the day in the " real world" of sawing there isn't that much yield difference either way: thin band kerf + oversaw = circle kerf.
No wavy cuts here...if a sawyer running a band mill has wavy cuts, he should stop and find out why, not keep sawing. I have a local furniture guy here who is extraordinary particular, and has been in business for 40 years. He religiously has used circle mills for years as his supplier, and to saw his logs....because of the same mind set, that band mills make wavy lumber. I told him I don't saw wavy lumber. I had the honor of sawing for him almost 2 years ago. I am now his sawyer, also gaining referrals from him. Bandmill kerf savings is significant. The fact remains that most circle mills will out produce most band mills.
Quote from: simonlow on September 27, 2016, 12:38:27 PM
I never complain if asked to cut thicker, means fewer cuts for a given volume after all :laugh:
Are you close to Satamax?
Quote from: longtime lurker on September 27, 2016, 04:22:56 PM
Hit and miss caused by blade wander is far less with a well tuned circle saw. Seems to me that any kerf saving you thin band guys get you give away to cutting thicker to allow for wavy cuts, and that at the end of the day in the " real world" of sawing there isn't that much yield difference either way: thin band kerf + oversaw = circle kerf.
I think this depends on how concerned with quality that the sawyer is. Either circle or band. I see the culls from the flooring plant that I sell to and there are far more miss cuts with a circle saw than with band sawn lumber in there. Most of them are too thin and never should have been sent. Blame it on the help.
However, If a bandmiller doesnt keep the band sharp and not push it too hard they can cut very accurate. I still think that if you put my bandmill up against a circle mill mine will make an extra 4/4 board every 5 cuts of the circle saw. some circle saws can cut more in 25 minutes that my mill can in a day!
Quote from: bkaimwood on September 27, 2016, 06:46:04 PM
Quote from: longtime lurker on September 27, 2016, 04:22:56 PM
For ¾ finished, allowing for 8% shrinkage or less, we saw at 1".
Shrinkage out to 12% we saw at 1 3/64's ( metric guage is 26.5).
Hit and miss caused by blade wander is far less with a well tuned circle saw. Seems to me that any kerf saving you thin band guys get you give away to cutting thicker to allow for wavy cuts, and that at the end of the day in the " real world" of sawing there isn't that much yield difference either way: thin band kerf + oversaw = circle kerf.
No wavy cuts here...if a sawyer running a band mill has wavy cuts, he should stop and find out why, not keep sawing. I have a local furniture guy here who is extraordinary particular, and has been in business for 40 years. He religiously has used circle mills for years as his supplier, and to saw his logs....because of the same mind set, that band mills make wavy lumber. I told him I don't saw wavy lumber. I had the honor of sawing for him almost 2 years ago. I am now his sawyer, also gaining referrals from him. Bandmill kerf savings is significant. The fact remains that most circle mills will out produce most band mills.
I typed all that out and should have waited and just wrote SAME.
PC
I bought about 3000 bf of Walnut and Oak last spring that had been circle sawed. Lots of it was 3/4. Even the 1" was pretty rough. Paid 600 for it and sold it the next day for 1500. The guy made pic frames so thickness was not a issue. Not all of it was bad. It was misrepresented to me so I lowballed. It was 5 mile from also.
Quote from: paul case on September 27, 2016, 06:50:07 PM
Quote from: longtime lurker on September 27, 2016, 04:22:56 PM
Hit and miss caused by blade wander is far less with a well tuned circle saw. Seems to me that any kerf saving you thin band guys get you give away to cutting thicker to allow for wavy cuts, and that at the end of the day in the " real world" of sawing there isn't that much yield difference either way: thin band kerf + oversaw = circle kerf.
I think this depends on how concerned with quality that the sawyer is. Either circle or band. I see the culls from the flooring plant that I sell to and there are far more miss cuts with a circle saw than with band sawn lumber in there. Most of them are too thin and never should have been sent. Blame it on the help.
However, If a bandmiller doesnt keep the band sharp and not push it too hard they can cut very accurate. I still think that if you put my bandmill up against a circle mill mine will make an extra 4/4 board every 5 cuts of the circle saw. some circle saws can cut more in 25 minutes that my mill can in a day!
Quote from: bkaimwood on September 27, 2016, 06:46:04 PM
Quote from: longtime lurker on September 27, 2016, 04:22:56 PM
For ¾ finished, allowing for 8% shrinkage or less, we saw at 1".
Shrinkage out to 12% we saw at 1 3/64's ( metric guage is 26.5).
Hit and miss caused by blade wander is far less with a well tuned circle saw. Seems to me that any kerf saving you thin band guys get you give away to cutting thicker to allow for wavy cuts, and that at the end of the day in the " real world" of sawing there isn't that much yield difference either way: thin band kerf + oversaw = circle kerf.
No wavy cuts here...if a sawyer running a band mill has wavy cuts, he should stop and find out why, not keep sawing. I have a local furniture guy here who is extraordinary particular, and has been in business for 40 years. He religiously has used circle mills for years as his supplier, and to saw his logs....because of the same mind set, that band mills make wavy lumber. I told him I don't saw wavy lumber. I had the honor of sawing for him almost 2 years ago. I am now his sawyer, also gaining referrals from him. Bandmill kerf savings is significant. The fact remains that most circle mills will out produce most band mills.
I typed all that out and should have waited and just wrote SAME.
PC
Very few wavy cuts here unless dull and pushing. Certainly not enough to worry about. I set the saw on 1" and it cuts the board 15/16. No trouble cleaning up to 3/4. Pretty accurate. BTW I love circle saws.
If I make 1 wavy cut I put on a sharp blade or find out why. Steve
Quote from: ladylake on September 27, 2016, 08:19:09 PM
If I make 1 wavy cut I put on a sharp blade or find out why. Steve
Same here, I allow myself no more than 1 wavy cut...99.9% it's the blade...
Quote from: pineywoods on September 27, 2016, 08:37:50 PM
Quote from: ladylake on September 27, 2016, 08:19:09 PM
If I make 1 wavy cut I put on a sharp blade or find out why. Steve
Same here, I allow myself no more than 1 wavy cut...99.9% it's the blade...
X3
The online Shrinkulator calculator is a good tool for figuring shrinkage. I input an initial MC of 40% and final moisture content of 8% for quarter sawing white oak. Initial thickness of 1". Final quarter sawn thickness after drying of .89" which is close to 7/8". No meat left to do any planing for cleanup and have a board that meets standard thickness requirements.
When I first started sawing, I cut at 1-1/6" thick when plain sawing and was proud that my lumber would clean up most of the time at 13/16" thick. But than I started to notice on my perfect, not a pimple 12" and wider boards a few were not cleaning up at 13/16" thick. Only seemed to happen on those perfect boards that would bring a premium because they were wider than 12". The cause could be traced to cupping during drying.
After putting pencil to paper the economics said saw 1-1/8" thick and I would be happy and no longer loose a FAS wide board. And to those who think they can get an extra board by sawing thin....that extra board comes out of the heart in most logs and is probably 3c.
These days I don't sell much lumber so I normally saw 4/4 at 1-3/16" or even 1-1/4" as I've found I like using thicker material when building my projects.
My last batch of QS red oak was cut at 1 1/8". I have built a couple of project that I really wanted to use 1" boards, but most of the boards cleaned up at 7/8". I will be cutting 1 1/4" for QS from now on.
i use to saw at 4/4......had too many that planed too thin.....I started sawing everthing at 5/4...I'm willing to sacrifice the extra usable cut to not lose the whole board
Anytime you want to see how well you're sawing first dry your lumber in a kiln and then run it through a planer. These next two steps don't let you get away with much.
OK. I am thinking about this issue from a furniture maker's perspective. Sure, you can saw at 1" and clean up to 3/4", get that extra board, etc. However, out of all the boards in a kiln load that are being planed and offered for sale, how many of the boards are gun barrel straight so that they merely have to be planed to final thickness and be used to make a table top, or chest of drawer top, or for any other piece of furniture that requires a flat, wider panel? Just because a board is 3/4" thick and cleaned up on both sides does not make it suitable for use in making furniture or many other wood working projects. Who wants a bow in their table?
The key word here is FLAT. To build furniture you need flat components. Most of the time, you need a jointer to flatten every board perfectly FLAT, then finish plane it. I am not talking barn siding or paneling or flooring here. Those are different animals.
My initial comments in this thread were aimed at furniture grade hardwood lumber. They were also aimed at walnut and other high quality, furniture grade hardwoods which will be used to make furniture. You can saw at 1", kiln dry to 8%, and get furniture grade results for full length boards for maybe half the boards in a pack. With the rest, you can get some short pieces that will clean up and be straight enough, but there will be a significant amount where there is not enough meat on the bones to take out any imperfections like bow, twist, or warp. And, I mean the slightest bow or twist. Flat has to be FLAT.
I shoot for 15/16" thick, fully planed boards that the woodworking customer can take and use a jointer to flatten the boards perfectly flat and then have enough to finish plane the board to 13/16" with 3/4" being the minimum.
Even though I was not clear in the title to this thread that it related to the highest end uses of hardwood lumber, this has been an informative discussion.
Danny, you and I think alike and serve similar customer needs.
When milling, unless we know that it's for "barn wood" we are milling all furniture grade boards wider than 6" as 5/4 dry stock. That way if they don't fully S2S at 1" we know that they will clean up at 3/4 or 7/8.
I've sawn millions of bf for the commercial grade market. Most buyers have a spec for the thickness, and it's sawn plump. That means they won't take anything under 1/8" overage, and a bit thicker on the heavier markets like 8/4 and up. It was always disheartening to see lumber go from FAS or Common to pallet due to thickness. You can loose major dollars real quick in a load. If the lumber continues to be too thin, you'll lose the customer.
I set out several years ago to be the best in the business. Not saying I'm there yet but I'm getting therein terms of quality of output. My goal is to send to market the best board I can make out of a given log: a board thats straight, flat, and dimensionally accurate. Colour and grain is Gods business, but in terms of what I can control I do everything in my power to make it as good as I can. I think its working - in the last 12 months we've supplied timber direct ex mill or had product with timber ex this mill go into every mainland Australian state, the USA, Germany, UK, Japan, Israel and who knows where else. I dont want to be a big sawmiller with 50 guys running around, but I do need to keep a roof over the heads of wife and kids and if I cant do that with volume then I have to do it with quality.
As part of that I had to look real hard at just what it takes to cut a good board and keep it that way. It's a whole of greenmill process. The boards coming off the mill have to be flat with no thick and thin. Theres always a bit - but my tolerance for thick and thin before I start looking for a problem is +/- 1mm, or 3/64"s for you imperial types. I dont worry about 3/64's in one board, but if I see it in three in a row i start looking for why. If there is excessive thickness the board goes sideways and gets put through the thicknesser to remove the thick at least prior to going in the pack, if its scant it gets put in the middle of the pack rather then the edges so the stickers lay flat and it doesnt distort the row of boards above it. I keep my saws sharp and tuned - if I'm seeing "circle saw"marks then its an issue. The marks are there obviously, but those big gouges that an out of whack circle gives are meat wasted when its time to dress a board clean.
Then its about how lumber is stripped out for drying. Thicknessed stickers, even packs, pack weights. I havent seen a board cupped that badly that it wouldnt make ¾ finished (and finished means flat) outside the top four rows of a top of the heap pack for a couple of years. I'm not saying that theres no cup... but if the boards themselves are even thickness in the pack, and the stickers are even thickness, and the stickers are vertically aligned through the packs and close enough together - well theres a lot of pressure on the boards in there from above and if they want to cup they got to work for it. As of last year we never put boards wider then 6"in the top rows either. Because when I could see cupped wider boards in the top of the pack and flat wider ones 5 rows down... it wasnt rocket science.
Then its about the initial air drying. I dont have much of the stain or fungal issues you guys do so I can bring them down nice and steady. Rapid early drying might be great for getting white lumber to market white but its also great for making it pull into circles. If we're doing species where stain is an issue now all boards get a swim in anti fungal treatment so I can still dry slow initially. Its a cost, and its a pain... but worthwhile.
But above all the driver of this has been sawing tolerances, because you can do everything else right but if the lumber isnt even going into a pack then it aint going to somehow get remarkably better coming out. Repeatable accuracy has become my most important consideration in equipment for that reason. We run ¼" TCT or stellite teeth on the circle resaws. I'd like to go to a band for the kerf saving but to get that kerf saving with my accuracy goal would require a band of minimum 6" width and more better if it was 8". Wide bands cut straighter, its a fact.
Wide bands also tend to have things like hob feeds, hydraulic sizing, and linebar positioning systems as well, and thats the important stuff. When you size by dropping an inch off the last cut its kind of empirical because the issue is did the log/flitch/cant stay flat after the last cut? It can be hard to tell when we're talking about 1/8" lift from tension over 16' in the log with sawdust spread everywhere and a sawmill running. I far prefer positive sizing where the thickness sawn is the distance between the saw and a fence and the cant/flitch passes through it. I can saw a bend in for sure - I've seen it before where the boards are bowed from end to end but perfect for thickness because the operator didnt bother to run a shim or face cut as required. But my experience also tells me that even then I have more hope of pressing that bowed board back to flat in a stack then I do of getting thick and thin lumber to dry flat in the same stack.
Thick and thin lumber is the absolute worst thing in a drying stack because not only is that board not good, but its making every board above in the stack distort to its shape as well. You can dry a bend in just as easy as you can dry one out.
The other thing of course is the recovery increase. I run circle resaws with ¼" kerf, which to my mind is the same as a band with a 1/8" kerf that requires 1/8" of oversaw to get the same flat ¾ board to market. I just make my sawdust in the greenmill not the drymill. Now if I could get that 1/8" kerf without the need for oversaw then that IS a real kerf saving. I really dont want the headaches of a big band filing room though... of late this combination of factors is whats pushing me to really look at sash gang resaws as an option to replace the circle resaw.
Great topic Danny - and one I,m rather passionate about as you can see.
1" works fine on my Cedar. The only time they don't clean up is blade dip.
I do not saw for furniture makers. Just for me. BUT if I was sawing for furniture makers.I would be listening to WDH. And If I ever do saw for furniture makers I will remember what WDH posted. ;)
The proof is in some of his past posts.
I'm With WDH, Cut fat. ;D
Out of curiosity, when you sell, say a board that is 12 inches wide 8 feet long and 1 1/8" thick, are you selling that as 8 board feet or 9 board feet? If I have a log that has 200 board feet in it and I saw it at 1 1/8", then i am only able to sell 177 board feet. I'm not against the idea but may have to reconsider my selling price or what i might pay for logs. There are so many years of experience on this forum and i appreciate it being handed down like grandma's secret recipe.
The way it works where I sell at is 1 1/8''+ is 4/4. =1''.
PC
Quote from: Waterford Woodworks on September 28, 2016, 09:50:03 PM
Out of curiosity, when you sell, say a board that is 12 inches wide 8 feet long and 1 1/8" thick, are you selling that as 8 board feet or 9 board feet? If I have a log that has 200 board feet in it and I saw it at 1 1/8", then i am only able to sell 177 board feet. I'm not against the idea but may have to reconsider my selling price or what i might pay for logs. There are so many years of experience on this forum and i appreciate it being handed down like grandma's secret recipe.
The significant increased value (selling price) of the the thicker board will more that cover the increase in wood used.
For example, I flat saw white oak to standard hardwood 4/4 of 1 1/8", dry it to 1 1/16" and plane it to 15/16". Things have to be pretty tight and right on the mill to saw flat enough where I only have to take a 1/16" off each side of a board to get it planed. This nominal 1 inch thick board is a lot more desireble to a customer than a 3/4" inch board so sells for a higher price. So, by having the mill dialed in and cutting precisely flat, I gain the extra up-charge in price with no increase in wood sawn. So flat sawing = profit increase. By the same token, we have guys around here who also saw to 1 1/8" and struggle to get a fully planed board at 3/4".
In the case of quarter sawn white oak, I get almost a 40% increase in sales price, and also sell it at the thicker, planed 15/16". I only need to increase my cutting depth 1/16" to get a nicely planed 15/16" board. When considering the added collateral waste of quarter sawn wood anyway, adding that 1/16" drop is a minimal consideration.
Commercial sales is by the nominal foot. That's pretty much the industry standard. For grading purposes, they use a grade stick that has the surface measure marked on it. At the half foot mark is where they change the amount of footage in the board. Some of the boards go up a bit in volume, and some may go down. That number is also used in figuring out grade. Volume is then figured by the surface measure x nominal thickness.
If you're trying to squeeze footage by charging for that additional overage, you may be higher priced than your competition. Do you charge less for a 2x4 that is cut scant?
Yes this is a good thread, I got my lesson on this awhile back when I sold some walnut to a local hardwood place. I cut it 2" thick, didnt think to add 1/4". He told me about it lol
Quote from: Waterford Woodworks on September 28, 2016, 09:50:03 PM
Out of curiosity, when you sell, say a board that is 12 inches wide 8 feet long and 1 1/8" thick, are you selling that as 8 board feet or 9 board feet?
8 board feet. The Industry standard board foot for rough sawn hardwood lumber being sold into the hardwood market is 12" long x 12" wide x 1 1/8" thick.
danny , i will try to retain all this info, i make no guarantee that ill remember this next time we talk ;D
jim
got my new price list today and it plainly states prices are 4/4 sawn 1 1/8 thick :)
I cut 5/4 as 1"
I want to be sure the man who takes it home gets more and better than he expected
When I first mentioned sawing 1" flat and consistent, it needs to be mentioned this was custom sawing customers logs. They had their reasons, I just met their requirements
When dealing with whole sale buyers, rest assured they have
Requirements, and hold to them, for flooring around here, 1-1/8" is the norm.
It really comes down to if you sell on "green measure" or "dry measure". Personally I use dry measure, which means that a 1-7/16" green quartersawn oak board is measured as a 5/4 board.
I have some birds eye and curly maple I bought before I had my mill it was sawn poorly and most under an inch .
I use it but for select things because of the thickness
I mostly cut long lumber and after 20 years of sawing I rarely get thick and thin boards. And the industry around here has always been at 1 1/8 for 4/4. A finely tuned band mill will cut perfectly flat and straight boards. Sawing pallet wood with a circle mill is one thing, but I can't imagine cutting Walnut, Cherry or even Oak with one. All I would see is dollar signs looking at the sawdust pile.
Thick and thin is from stress; a finely tuned bandmill goes a long way, but if you aren't watching for movement and trim cutting + stress relieving on the correct face you'll have thick and thin lumber.
Roger that... ;)
Stress is the enemy of a flat board. and often with crappy logs, I have to take several skim cuts from one log to get good lumber. I saw most everything on the 5/4 scale for a finished, nominal size of 7/8" to 1", as many of my logs are junk compared to the beauties some of you guys get. I saw 95% for furniture grade and like WDH, I go for as few culls as possible. Although if I do have lumber that won't make 3/4" I simply take it down to 5/8", as I use a lot of that thickness as well.
Well... I can see the advantage of sawing a little thicker. 1 and 1/8 will become my new standard. Now I know everyone is different but what would be the allowance for say stress relief. + or - 1/16? Thanks for the input everyone.
Stress has to be relieved as you are sawing, and it would not be a predictably measurable amount. I have seen a cant raise ¼" or more during one pass. :o
Quote from: Magicman on October 03, 2016, 02:50:51 PM
Stress has to be relieved as you are sawing, and it would not be a predictably measurable amount. I have seen a cant raise ¼" or more during one pass. :o
1/4" is nothing, one time I had a hickory cant reach out and swat me and then it reached my key and shut the mill off. No kidding, eh?
Had a customer come looking for some wood. She said that she went to buy some cedar from another sawyer, but it was sawn at 3/4" thick :-\. Maybe suitable for lining a closet, but how good is the cedar closet lining market?
I picked up a cherry log over the week end and the customer had a small cherry log and a ash log he wanted cut.
He said he wanted it cut to 1" and i asked what size he wanted after dry and planed. He said 3/4" and i said we
needed to cut to 1 1/8" so he would have enough to make 3/4 lumber. After i deliver his lumber he said is that
why i could not git 3/4 with what other sawyer cut my logs. I said did you asked for 1" and he said yes, didn't
the sawyer tell you about cutting thicker, he said no. We all ways cut to 1 1/8" or more if asked to.
Sawwood.
Quote from: WDH on April 20, 2017, 08:05:04 AM
Had a customer come looking for some wood. She said that she went to buy some cedar from another sawyer, but it was sawn at 3/4" thick :-\. Maybe suitable for lining a closet, but how good is the cedar closet lining market?
i dont understand peoples thinking about cedar ::) i have been told to saw it on 1" or even 3/4" several times by guys who have a pile of cedar post ( not saw logs ) and these guys are wanting to sell the lumber :o the guys who are wanting the lumber to use themselves know how they want it cut and why so i cut how they want it :) but those other guys think they have a gold mine and try to cheat the guy they are wanting to sell to by cutting it to thin smiley_dizzy think_not dadgum you, Charlie! no_no now i just tell them im not interested and go fishing ;) by the way we caught 38 keepers tuesday night 8)
I think...
As a general rule here I work on finished thickness + ¼" with a variation for shrinkage. So if we're cutting flooring material I sit on 1", material for cabinet/joinery application which is normally 7/8"finished here I sit on 1 1/8. If I'm factoring in shrinkage in excess of 5% I'll add 1 mm to it.
Sawing fatter then that is insurance. There's a cost to doing so and its not just scavenging an extra board here and there its also the cost of drying extra thickness and then removing it in the drymill. Against which the penalty for thin is stiff.... if I saw an inch board and it doesnt make a ¾ finished floorboard the next size down for me is panelling at ½... and thats a lot of wasted meat: Wasted wood, wasted kiln time, and increased wear on the moulders.
Same with cabinet and joinery timbers that dont make 7/8... the price drop to ¾ is significant.
So the real question is "how much insurance do you need?" And the answer to that will vary depending on the equipment choices you make because some equipment saws more accurately then others. Some operators can drive a saw better then others. And it will vary depending on the attention to detail a sawyer has behind the saw with regard stacking and stickering and storage.
One thing I will say is that I have been able to do it differently then most. I've built a customer base for our value added stuff thats mostly direct ex mill without an agent/buyer in the middle. And because I dont have to hit the middle mans spec for thickness which is based around the lowest common denominator it has pushed me to look at all this. If I had an agent between me and customer then I would just sit on 1¼ or whatever number he wanted too. I don't have that agent, my spec is customer derived, and if I think I can saw thinner and get a bad result then the only one who loses out is me because I got to cut another lot to fill the same order.
Jake pinned it at the start: if you want to know how good you saw, kiln it and dress it after. And if you saw and store good and you find that you're dressing off excess all the time then why not reduce the insurance?
Sometimes it is necessary to get a finished board that is thicker than 3/4", like 7/8" for face frames or for tops of chests and such. Sawing at 1" rough gives you little flexibility beyond 3/4". It also sets me apart from the Big Box Stores as their lumber is all at 3/4" thick or a bit thinner.
Also, good quality furniture requires boards that are dead FLAT. Sometimes you have to joint some bow out then plane and that is where the 1 1/8" board really gives you the flexibility that you need.
^^^^ what he said ;D lurkers wood could dry different from ours ??? but getting the cup out of a board that is sawn at 1 1/8 is cutting it close if its over 8" wide to finish at 3/4 and no way to get 7/8 :( and the wider the board the worse it gets ::)
Cup will change the numbers for sure if you allow it to happen.
So don't let it cup. Problem solved.
Quote from: longtime lurker on April 21, 2017, 06:53:55 AM
Cup will change the numbers for sure if you allow it to happen.
So don't let it cup. Problem solved.
Also, cup can be controlled, to some extent, by the sawing pattern. Or conversely, it can be made much more likely, and much worse, with incorrect sawing patterns.
Interesting thread, especially since there isn't much of an established furniture lumber market here (that I know of).
I've got about 60 walnut logs (small to med.) right now that I'm unsure how I want to saw them.
The original scale on my LT40 only allowed 1/6" inch for blade kerf and 4/4 was under 1" so I made another scale allowing 0.1" so 4/4 measures a full 1"
From reading this thread it sounds like need to make up another scale that will make 4/4 lumber at 1 1/8".
....A setworks would make things a lot easier.
I have found from personal experience that there is nothing worse than not having the wood I needed to complete the project I had in mind.
I WILL NEVER SKIMP AGAIN!!!
Quote from: D6c on April 21, 2017, 09:47:49 AM
From reading this thread it sounds like need to make up another scale that will make 4/4 lumber at 1 1/8".
Yes, especially for walnut.
The scale on my WM has a regular quarter scale on one side, and a hardwood scale on the other where the 4/4 is 1 1/8" if I remember right (97 model).
Quote from: WDH on April 20, 2017, 08:05:04 AM
Had a customer come looking for some wood. She said that she went to buy some cedar from another sawyer, but it was sawn at 3/4" thick :-\. Maybe suitable for lining a closet, but how good is the cedar closet lining market?
I've sold quite a bit of 3/4" cedar. Yes, closet lining, paneling, siding, and craft items. Next best seller is 10/4 for outside stuff.
I'm sometimes amazed at what sells. :D
I'm trying another experiment. A local mill had a whole stack of miscut thin cedar boards. Waste of lumber for them, opportunity for me. I bought about 800 bdft for almost nothing, dried and planed it to 1/2" on one side. Rough sawn one side, planed the other. We seem to have at least one customer a week ask for this, so now we can point them to the stack and hope they bite. This is why the topic is so relevant as "sawing too thin" affects the big mills as well as us little guys.
to thin is a major problem for commercial lumber i had a tt load of poplar ( 12 mbdft ) because it was a 1 5/8 instead of 1 11/16 :o >:( ::) but they told me the spec beforehand so... smiley_dunce it was on me not them ::) when they give you a min spec its the min :( :D :D :D
Got caught by a buddy's daughter at church a few weeks ago. She says Uncle Steve we are replacing the floor in our house can you bring your truck over so we can load up the debris to haul off. She bats them puppy dog eyes at me gives me a hug the best she can with her pregnant belly in the way so what was I to say. Yeah, I go, we load up their old carpet and some other junk. Then she says can you help carry in the new flooring. Oh all right. We step into the garage and there sits a bundle of Cedar. That they are going to use for flooring. The "lumber" measures out at a whopping 3/8" thick with tongue and groove that are about 3/16" thick surface planed and sanded. 2 and 1/2" wide random length with nothing over 2' long. My jaw was scraping the ground. You're not seriously using this for flooring I remember saying. Yep we are her husband replies. He has put it down and it looks good but we shall see how it holds up. It takes all kinds! ::)
The cedar here would not last long.
I can see 1/2 inch cedar for a liner for a closet. Would want something behind it too.
I planed hickory to 3/4" and planned to have it T&Ged for flooring in our house. I took it to a local woodwork shop that said their process required planning and T&Ging in one step. GLUP! I didn't know this. I accepted it at 9/16" and installed it with backer board under it to match the level of existing flooring. It looks great after 10 years. For subsequent flooring I saved a step and omitted the planing.