Silly bucking question

Old Greenhorn · August 20, 2019, 09:36:50 PM

So I cut and buck a lot of trees for a non-pro guy. I don't have issues with handling any of the trees I do, but I do not come across big trees too often. I have one blow down I have been working on between other jobs and the heat, I do a little at a time (it's out in the blazing sun). This tree is 32" DBH RO and the stump is about 8' above the flat grade where the top is. So I have about 35' of suspended trunk at around 8,500 pounds. I like to control those forces and not be surprised. Also, getting a bar pinched in this stick will be a major issue with no heavy equipment. I rarely get bars pinched, maybe stuck, that I can yank out, but I throw a wedge in if I think I might have a problem. This tree is too big to rely on wedges alone. When I buck the big suspended ones I usually cut the top (compression side) about 1/3 of the way down or until I feel the bar sticking, then I cut from the bottom up and 95% of the time that works fine. But on a big log, when I do the upcut it starts to come down and tear and I can't get it cut clean through before it tears and falls down which is distracting and a bit hazardous. (There are also potential side loads that are very hard to predict and this is what concerns me. It could make me a hurting unit.) A 20" log that I can stand back from and cut clean through is an easy thing, but a 32" log that is already above chest height and I have to be up close and reaching to the far side is another, I could have my chest against this log when it lets go if I don't play it right. I got bumped over by a small one last week because I missed a spring pole back in the weeds that was pushing it. On the bigger ones I have been 'riding it down' and keeping the saw at the cut, but I am wondering if I just need to learn a better way.
What do y'all do with these long suspended heavy logs with a huge tension load on the bottom? Cutting it off the stump is another issue, but I want to shorten the stem before I do that. Having the stump connected keeps the tension a little bit lower on the log. This stump should be fun, the root spread is about 10' tall.

Corley5 · August 21, 2019, 08:25:54 AM

Sometimes boring the center first helps. Each situation is unique.

Old Greenhorn · August 21, 2019, 10:26:52 AM

Quote from: Corley5 on August 21, 2019, 08:25:54 AMEach situation is unique.

Indeed.
Not a bad idea.

alan gage · August 21, 2019, 11:03:34 AM

I'm no pro by any means, and maybe you already do this, but I first cut all the way through the far side of the log if my bar isn't long enough or I don't want to be right next to the log when finishing the cut. This keeps me from being so up close and personal to it when it's getting close to go. I can stand back a little and my bar will be long enough to cut what's left.

Alan

Old Greenhorn · August 21, 2019, 01:01:39 PM

Quote from: alan gage on August 21, 2019, 11:03:34 AM
I'm no pro by any means, and maybe you already do this, but I first cut all the way through the far side of the log if my bar isn't long enough or I don't want to be right next to the log when finishing the cut. This keeps me from being so up close and personal to it when it's getting close to go. I can stand back a little and my bar will be long enough to cut what's left.

Alan

Definitely part of the plan Alan. I don't want to be jumping back and forth, the top of the log is at neck level, so I either go under or around. I think the real issue I am thinking about is when I cut through, one side of the cut is going to head upward, while the other side will fall. Avoiding a jam is what I am looking at.

btulloh · August 21, 2019, 02:02:56 PM

A wedge or two will solve that. Something to keep the top from moving toward the bottom. A wedge or two will guarantee the movement will be up or down and eliminate a pinch or a grab.

stavebuyer · August 21, 2019, 02:30:27 PM

I'd be more wary of the 10' root ball. I had a friend(patriarch of a 3 generation logging clan) get crushed cutting the butt log off a blown over oak as a favor. Sometimes they plop back in the stump hole: sometimes they come forward. I have seen a lot of them move after being released that just looking at I didn't think still had tension. Been through enough of them not to trust them. The cutt off block will pinch you bar and break your foot. The root ball can kill ya.

Gary_C · August 21, 2019, 02:53:26 PM

The situation you describe is as dangerous as it can get. I cut a large red oak blowdown job once but I was cutting with a harvester so I had help making it safer but it was still dangerous.

First thing I learned is the RO when still attached to the stump has an extreme amount of pressure back towards the stump. The reason is the upswept limbs on the lower side of the stem drive into the soil like a stake pointing back towards the root ball. The first one I cut by hand to get access to the job pinched both my hand saws plus wedges so I had to get the harvester to retrieve my equipment and the only way I could do that even with a machine help was to work my way alongside the stem till I could grab the tree by the top and lift it free. Then I cut off the top and worked my way back to the stump. That then became the only method to buck those downed trees with the root ball attached. In every case I tried to cut from the root ball up, it cost me a pinched and twisted bar.

The second thing that makes your situation so very dangerous is making cuts at eye level. I simply would not do it as no wood is worth your life and make no mistake about it, cutting at eye level is life threatening.

So as I see it, you have two choices. One would be to get some machine help or the second would be to limit the cutting to nibbling away at the top branches till the top is on the ground and free from stress.

btulloh · August 21, 2019, 03:35:17 PM

Wow. I went back and re-read the initial post. I'd like to see a picture of that tree and the topo. It sounds like a perfect death trap. I got scared just trying to picture what you're describing.

It sounds way out of my league. Stay safe!

Old Greenhorn · August 21, 2019, 04:21:33 PM

Here ya go. The lower trunk is 32" DBH, stump still attached. The other stick on top (no longer there) is 16-18" DBH for reference. Back behind my right shoulder in this photo there is a drop from the trunk to the grade level of about 3-4'.

btulloh · August 21, 2019, 04:26:50 PM

That doesn't look as bad as I thought. That looks like most of my blowdowns, just a little bigger. I'd feel comfortable, but cautious, with that.

Being 400 miles away makes me even more comfortable. :D

(Probably more like 300 miles, but still pretty comfortable.)

Old Greenhorn · August 21, 2019, 04:36:16 PM

Yeah, this isn't scary dangerous, just a big stick with a lot of stresses on it as others have stated. I have removed to small stick and bucked it into either firewood or saw logs. Likewise I have whittled away at the top of the main stem and removed several leaders. One is down in the ground and I want to separate that before going much further. The I will have a straight stick back to the stump 35' long tapering from 35 to 24' diameter. I plan from working from the top down, as also suggested, but the last two cuts will be the tricky ones. It could stand back up when I get closer to the stump, but that would make me feel better. :D I think it might go halfway up at best. I just like to take my time with these and think it through. My biggest change with this will be that I clear each log before cutting the next so they can't drop in and jam. This is one of those trees I keep going back to between other jobs and making a little more progress each time. Then I think some more on it.
Thanks for all the input.
If I get a chance I'll grab some better photos. I will be there all weekend but can't do any cutting.

btulloh · August 21, 2019, 04:41:01 PM

That's a good looking stick. It deserves to become lumber.

It's too big for my mill and too heavy for my tractor,but other than that I'd be all over it. :D

btulloh · August 21, 2019, 04:44:40 PM

I think you've got a good plan.

Old Greenhorn · August 21, 2019, 05:40:50 PM

Quote from: btulloh on August 21, 2019, 04:41:01 PM
That's a good looking stick. It deserves to become lumber.

It's too big for my mill and too heavy for my tractor,but other than that I'd be all over it. :D

It's too big for my mill and I ain't got no tractor, but I am all over it. It 5 weeks when the DEP does their reservoir release, this will be under water. Gotta move now.
Here is another view I don't think I posted before.

btulloh · August 21, 2019, 05:47:37 PM

That's a good looking poplar(?) next to it. Might as well grab that too. ;)

dsroten · August 21, 2019, 05:50:02 PM

I usually just work these blowovers from the top back and take a log or two at a time. Just way safer. I measure from stump up and mark it then work from there. Or are you trying to leave whole stem together?

Old Greenhorn · August 21, 2019, 05:52:04 PM

Can't do that. This property is an environmental education facility. Any non dead trees that pose no threat have to be discussed and put in the plan. As this will flood almost every year that would be a good argument for taking it, however I have several hundred other trees that have to come down first. There is plenty of wood to go around. ;D ;D

Old Greenhorn · August 21, 2019, 05:54:06 PM

Quote from: dsroten on August 21, 2019, 05:50:02 PMOr are you trying to leave whole stem together?

OH HECK NO! That would be about a 9,000# stick. I don't even know if I can handle it in 8 footers.

dsroten · August 21, 2019, 08:33:35 PM

After I get the top cut free and the upper logs off, I leave the last log attached to root ball. Then I'll stand it up with tractor or winch or whatever. Then fell the last log like a tree. Keeps saw out of the dirt and gets the rootball back in hole where it belongs without the danger or it mashing me

Old Greenhorn · August 21, 2019, 08:41:32 PM

Well, I would like to do that, but it's a steep uphill from the stump so even if I had a tractor to work with, it would be a tough pull. I am going to work from the top back and hope it stands up when I get it short. I am going to make the butt log just over 6' so I have a chance of milling it up, maybe the next one up too, until I get below 26" diameter. It's just a fun thing to do, but I don't wanna get crushed doing it.

dgdrls · August 21, 2019, 09:12:05 PM

Quote from: Old Greenhorn on August 21, 2019, 05:40:50 PM
Quote from: btulloh on August 21, 2019, 04:41:01 PM
That's a good looking stick. It deserves to become lumber.

It's too big for my mill and too heavy for my tractor,but other than that I'd be all over it. :D
It's too big for my mill and I ain't got no tractor, but I am all over it. It 5 weeks when the DEP does their reservoir release, this will be under water. Gotta move now.
Here is another view I don't think I posted before.

Use some blocking to hold up the butt.
what reservoir makes the release??
D

btulloh · August 21, 2019, 11:10:34 PM

Blocking can be helpful and makes for fewer moving elements. I know the pros can just forge ahead, but I'm not a pro.

I used a farm jack on one a while back to get it to flip up. The balance point was close enough that it just needed a little help.

Old Greenhorn · August 22, 2019, 05:57:58 AM

Quote from: dgdrls on August 21, 2019, 09:12:05 PM

what reservoir makes the release??
D

That would be the Ashokan. I think they dump 130 million gallons an hour or something like that. They are supposed to limit the release to 3 weeks, but last year it ran for several months. It does a lot of damage and washes out the creek pretty well. They do this to control the seasonal level in the reservoir, so they say. The creek becomes pretty useless and dangerous during the release, the water moves at 15 knots or more. From the perspective of a guy that used to do swiftwater rescue, it scares the heck out of me if a kid were to get caught in it.

TreeSpyder · August 22, 2019, 08:55:33 PM

System of balances, always be watching and perhaps neutralize by reciprocating saw tensioning roots as pressures shift so don't cut at 6' and release allows 6' stump to spring back up and sometimes more than original!
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Would have to look to ground contact support points to determine cut positions.
>>if just laying is one thing, but if twisted or compressed down length is much higher complication.
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Might consider upwards facing towards noon and back cut upwards from 6:00 into, but then feeding into strongest gravity axis.
>>so would face towards 1:00, and back cut kinda from 7:00 to not feed into power axis
>>then add tapers hinge fat side down to pull away from upwards pinch
>>already having dropped wedge or other small chock in high side of hinge as like wise Duty push away from upwards pinch.
Essentially , make side face target, severest upward pinch as side lean and Tapers hinge pull and Dutch push away from side lean/severest upward pinch.
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Can put logs as stops under spar so it can't sit down as far, also helping to keep saw clean.
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Good L.U.C.K. (Labor Under Controlled Knowledge); seems the more ya practice, the L.U.C.K.ier ya get!
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Geez and to think I almost misread that bucking title!!!